of the two houfes of parliament of Ireland, being read, lord Grenville rofe, and faid, he fhould immediately move, that the house do refolve itself into a committee of the whole houfe on the faid refolutions; after which, he should take the liberty of fuggefting the form and extent of the proceedings neceffary on fo important a fubject.

Earl Fitzwilliam fubmitted it to their lordships, whether, from the nature and importance of the fubject, it would not be more confiftent to fufpend the difcuffion of the refolutions till after they fhould have undergone the confideration of the other houfe of parliament. His lordship meant not to call in queftion the right of the houfe to take up the question in the firft inftance; but he well knew there were many points of a delicate nature, chiefly commercial, that might occafion fome refpectable members of the other house of parliament to call for further information, and perhaps give rife to various neceffary

alterations.

Lord Grenville faid, that in propofing that their lordships fhould refolve themfelves into a committee of the whole houfe, to take the refolutions into confideration immediately, he was warranted by a variety of precedents. However, to convince the noble earl and the houfe that no inconvenience was likely to arife from it, he would immediately explain what his intentions were, if the house fhould be agreeable to the words of his motion, and confent to form itfelf into a committee. In that committee, he fhould merely propofe the firft, fecond, and third refolutions, after which he did not with to call upon their lordships to pro. ceed further for the prefent; but would then move that the chair

man report progress, and ask leave to fit again on a future day; and as foon as the houfe was refumed, and the faid report made, he should then move to adjourn the committee for a few days, not intending to call as yet for the further difcuffion of the refolutions. He meant afterwards to wait till the house of commons should have gone through the refolutions, and feat them up with their report upon them, explaining the grounds of fuch alterations as they might think proper to make in them.

The earl of Radnor expreffed a wish to be informed of the ftrict parliamentary line of proceeding, fhould any alterations be made in the refolutions by either branch of the legiflature.

as

Lord Grenville faid, the neceffary mode of proceeding would be for that houfe to take the report of the commons into confideration, well as their alterations; and, if any difference of opinion fhould arife, to ftate the difference to the other houfe by meffage, in order that they might both agree.

Lord Fitzwilliam expreffed himfelf fatisfied with what had fallen from the noble secretary.

Lord Grenville then moved, that the houfe do immediately refolve itfelf into a committee of the whole house.

Lord Holland rofe and faid, painfal as it was to him to detain their lordships, by inducing a debate where it was evident no debate would have taken place unless he had rifen to provoke one, still he could not avoid taking upon himfelf the unwelcome office of addrefling their lordships, even against their inclination. He allured them, however, he would not have put himself in fo unpleasant a fituation, if it were not that he rofe to fpeak

10

to the principle of the union. He did not mean to deny, that the fifter kingdom had long stood in a fituation which required fome means to be adopted to place it on a more eligible footing; he took the liberty to contend, that the union was not the remedy adequate to the occafion, nor were the good effects that might probably refult from it forty or fifty years hence, as the parliament of Ireland were taught to expect, a proportionate price to fatisfy that country for the immenfe advantages the was called upon to furrender at the prefent moment, To render the remedy applicable as a compenfation for the purchase in fo great a bargain, prefent benefits equal in value ought to be immediately made over to Ireland. He was aware the original pretext for the measure was the attempt made to feparate both kingdoms. In that point of view, it was a moft ferious confideration, whether the union might give a real increase of ftrength to that kingdom, to government, or whether it would or would not conciliate the affections of the people of Ireland? The complaints of the protestants and the catholics were well known: would the union fecure the redrefs for them? Much reliance had been placed on the falutary effects that had refulted to Scotland from her union with Great Britain; but, without difcuffing whether the beneficial advantages of an increased commerce, an extended fyftem of agriculture, an enlarged fcale of manufacture, had been derived by Scotland as an immediate confequence of her union, or had gradually increafed from other caufes, it was fufficient to remark, that forty years had elapfed before Scotland had reaped any of the effential benefits which at this time the enjoyed. He therefore

maintained, that fpeculative ideas of diftant advantages were but vifionary and delufive, when fet in competition with invaluable rights and the glory of independence.

His lordfhip next adverted to the folemn affurance which his majesty's minifters had given in both houfes, that, although in their judgements an union of both countries was moft defirable, yet, that it fhould not be accepted unless it were the pure and fpontaneous offer of the parliament of Ireland, uninfluenced by corruption or menace. He would, however, appeal to the feelings of any individual, whether it was doubted that corruption and intimidation had been practifed to obtain a majority in fupport of the measure in both houfes of the Irish parliament? The prejudices of the Irifa proteft ants and the catholics of Ireland had been played upon, and both the one and the other had been taught to expect a full gratification of all their withes, provided an union took place. But why, faid his lord fhip, was an union neceffary for that purpofe? Might not the Irish parliament adminifter all that was neceffary, without merging into the Britifh fenate? It had been argued that the members of the Irish parliament were not capable of conducting the affairs of that kingdom; it had been faid that they were open to corruption. If they were open to corrup tion, would they not ftrengthen the hands of the crown against the intereits of the people, and become the ready tools of minifters, to affift them in any defigns they might hereafter wish to practife against the confitution? All the evils which the union would neceffarily bring upon Ireland would, it was fid, be more than compenfated by the influx of commerce: for his part, he had his doubts whether fuch commercial

benefits

benefits would ever arife. He was certain, however, that a long interval muft elapfe before Ireland could reap any benefit: on the other hand, the evils fhe muft experience were immediate and preffing. After fome more general remarks, his lordship concluded by faying, that fhould their lordships go into a committee, he would hold it his duty to attend there, however ineffectual his efforts might be, to render the details of the measure as palatable as he could to the people of Ireland, and as little destructive to the conftitution of Great Britain.

ry

Lord Grenville expreffed great furprife at being called upon that day to fupport the general principle of a queftion which had been repeatedly, recently, and almoft unanimously recognised by both houfes of parliament. He obferved, that in the whole courfe of his parliamentary experience, a public queftion had not been fo amply or fo ably difcuffed as that very one of a legiflative union with Ireland: he therefore concluded that it was unneceffathat he fhould trouble their lordfhips at length upon the fubject. With refpect to what his lordfhip had afferted, that corruption and menace had been practifed, the fair way would be to have brought proof of either, if fuch an evidence could have been obtained. With regard to the fenfe of the people of Ireland, he knew not how that fenfe was to be obtained, but through the parliament of Ireland through that medium, he faid, it had been conveyed to this country; and he spoke the fincere and honeft feelings of his heart, when he folemnly declared, he believed the people of Ireland had fpoken their real fentiments, refpecting the propofed legislative union with Great Britain, through their parliament. With refpect to the great danger

that was held out by the noble lord, as likely to refult to the British conftitution, he faw no fuch danger, nor did he believe that the infufion of a certain number of members from Ireland into our house, would tend to ftrengthen the hands of the crown against the rights and privileges of the people, or enable minifters to exercise a greater share of undue influence. On this his lordship spoke at fome length, and contended that the precedent of the union with Scotland had, in all points, been as clofely followed as the different nature of the two cafes would admit. The noble lord had viewed the fubject in a very narrow light with refpect to the benefits that were likely to refult to Ireland from an union, as not being probable to arife to Ireland immediately. For his part, he had ever confidered that, in looking at a matter of fuch magnitude as the legislative union of two great countries, a wife and enlightened politician would confider it in two diftinct points of view-the one, the immediate neceffity that demanded it-the other, the great and general benefit that would gradually and ultimately be fecured from it to the two countries fo united as an entire empire. His lordship next made fome obfervations with refpect to the catholic question, and remarked, that from the very first day after the bufinefs was ever difcuffed, to the prefent moment, no fuch idea was ever heard of as that thrown out by the noble lord: on the other hand, all feemed to agree, whatever difference of opinion there might exift refpecting the measure in other points of view, that the catholics' claims could beft be discussed and fettled by an imperial parliament, and that without the leaft inconve nience or cause of uneafinefs to the people of Ireland. His lordship

con

contended, that relief could more fafely be granted to the catholics of Ireland by an imperial parliament than by the parliament of Ireland.

Lord Holland rofe to say a few words in reply; when the lord chancellor left the woolfack to requeft the noble lord to fufpend offering what he had further to fay, as he would have an opportunity of urging whatever he had to advance after the queftion was put for the house to refolve itself into a committee, The earl of Derby faid, he believed no noble lord was entitled to queftion the right of a peer to reply to any arguments against what had fallen from him in the course of his fpeech.

[Many of the noble lords exclaimed "qubolly irregular-totally cont ary to order."}

Lord Holland faid, it was always painful to his mind, after having fpoken at length, to have occafion to trouble them a fecond time; and he should not have spoken at all that day, if he were not aware, that if he had permitted the houfe to go into a committee, he might then have heard it urged, on his attempt ing to speak to the principle of the union, that the houfe were engaged in the detail of the articles, and that he ought to have spoken before they went into a committee, if he had wifhed to fay any thing on the principle. Nevertheless, though he had a right to explain, he would not refift the fenfe of the house.

Earl Fitzwilliam, the lord chancellor, and lord Grenville, faid each a few words relative to the flanding orders of the house, after which the queftion was put, that the house do refolve itfelf into a commirtee of the whole houfe."-Contents 82Non-Contents 3.-Lord Grenville then moved the three fift

1000.

refolutions; [vide the public papers] and they were feverally agreed to.

The chairman was then directed to report progrefs, and ask leave to fit again.

The houfe refumed, and the chairman made his report.

Lord Grenville then moved to adjourn the committee to the Friday following, which was ordered.

On Friday, April 25th-the order having been moved and read for the house to refolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to take into confideration the fourth article of the union, and that the lords be fummoned—

Lord Grenville rofe, and pleaded an apology for not going into the confideration of the fourth refolution as he had intended, as particular reafons had rendered it inconvenient; therefore he would call their lordships' attention to the feventh refolution, and poftpone the fourth. His lordfhip faid, the feventh was one of thofe refolutions fent over by the parliament of Ireland, with the conditions on which that parliament was willing to unite with the parliament of this kingdom. The refolution was divided into eleven propofitions; upon each, he faid, it was neceflary for him to fay a few words. His lordship then read thefe eleven propofitions, and explained refpectively, as he proceeded, the principles upon which they were feverally founded, and the objects they were meant to provide again. Having gone through the whole, lord Wallingham (as chairman of the committee) read them to the committee, and put a question on each propofition.

When his lordship came to the third propofition, earl Fitzwilliam rofe, and expreffed his approbation of government availing itfelf of

H

fuch

fuch a meafure as the general income tax; yet he obferved there was a wide diftinction between heartily approving of a tax' being adopted as a temporary measure, and holding it as a permanent general tax, for fuch the words in the propofition evidently did. His lord ip faid he would never give his confent to make fuch a tax as the income tax a permanent and general tax, or even to let words pafs in a refolution of that important nature, without endeavouring at leaft to have them omitted, and lefs objectionable words fubftituted in their place. His lordship then moved, that the words "or on a comparison of the amount of income in each country, eftimated from the produce for the fame periods of a general tax, if fuch fhall have been impofed on the fame defcriptions of income in both countries," be left out, and other words, mentioning other general taxes on the amount of income, be inferted in their place.

Upon this motion a long converfation took place. Lord Holland and the earl of Caernarvon fupported the amendment. Lord Grenville, lord Hobart, and lord Auckland, ftrongly objected to it, and contended that the whole amendment was founded on a falfe conftruction of the original words of the refolution.

Lord Grenville was of an opinion that the propofed amendment of the noble earl was totally unneceffary, as the criterion was not to depend alone on the amount of income, but on the amount of any taxes payable at the time; fo that it made no fort of difference whether the income tax fhould exift when fuch a comparison fhould be made; but even if the income was to be the fiterion, there could not be a fairer

one to judge of the ability of any country to pay taxes.

Lord Holland contended that a tax on income, fuch as was adopted in this country, could never be the criterion of ability, and his affertion was proved by fact. A tax on the income of every individual was propofed in parliament and agreed to. This tax was eftimated to produce a given fum, but it produced very little more than half the eftimated fum; measures were still to be taken to render it more productive; therefore he wished to know how it could be a fair criterion. Lord Hobart faid the parliament of Ireland had adopted it as a fair criterion, and therefore it was unneceffary for the parliament of England to make any alteration on the fubject.

The earl of Caernarvon faid, the reafon affigned by the laft noble lord (Hobart) in vindication of the words objected to by his noble friend had effectually convinced him of their great impropriety, and that they had a fecret and dangerous tendency. The income tax, from the mode of its collection, was the most offenfive to British feelings, and even to the liberty of the country, and had neither been propofed nor re'ceived, but as a temporary expedient. The noble lord had told the houfe, that the prophetic exiftence of this tax in the propofitions must not be confidered as an artful hint of the minister, but as a voluntary pledge of Ireland to its acceptance, and as the ftipulated terms of union propofed by Ireland; this his lord@hip reprobated in the most fevere terms, and feriously regretted that the union with Ireland (a measure to which he was cordially a friend) fhould be contaminated and embarraffed with fubjects fo

foreign