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which I avow, I cannot quarrel with ticks, and that persons may be murthe bill for the relief it gives. No, my dered, under the pretence that they are Lords--the Noble Lord, who moved hereticks, as impious and unchristian; the second reading, has himself opened they are ready to renounce, as impious the grounds of my objection, My and unchristian, the doctrine, that Lords, I object to the bill, that it is in: Princes, excommunicated by the Sec of sufficient to its own purpose. My Rome, may be murdered by their subLurds, I quarrel with the bill for the jeets; they are ready to renounce the partiality of its operation.

doctrine, that Princes, excommunicated With the indulgence of your Lorde by the See of Rome, may be deposed by Ships, I will endeavour to explain, from their subjects : but to this deposing docwhat circumlances, in the fabrick of the trine they scruple to apply the epithets bill, this defect arises; I will set forth of impious, unchrillian, and damnable. the importance of the objedion; and My Lords, they think that this docthen I will trouble your Lordships with wine is rather to be called false, than the reasons of my apprehension, that impious; traiterous, than unchristian. this objection is not likely to be done They say, that the language of an oath away, by any amendments which we can thould not be adorned, figured, and give the bill in a Committee.

amplified, but plain, fimple, and preMy Lords, this bill is to relieve Ro. cise. But in truth, my Lords, this man Catholicks from the penal laws, scruple is founded in a tender regard for under the condition that they take an the memory of their progenitors. Some oath of allegiance, abjuration, and de two centuries fince, this error, however claration ; the terms of which oath the absurd and malignani, was, like other bill prescribes. The bill, therefore, absurd and malignant errors, universal. will relieve such Roman Catholicks as Yit, my Lords, there lived in those take this oath, and none else. Now, times many men of diftinguished picey my Lords, it is, I believe, a well-known and virtue, who acquiefced in this erfact, that a very great number, I be ror as a speculative doctrine, though Jieve I thould be correct if I were to they never acted upon it. My Lords, say, a very great majority, of the Roman the more scrupulous of the Roman Cao Latholicks fcruple the terms in which tholicks think it hard, that men of prothis oath is unfortunately drawn, and bity and virtue, entertaining a lpeculadeclare they cannot bring themselves to tive error, fanctioned by its universalicy, take it. With the permission of the upon which they wever a&cd, fhould House, I will enter a litle into the de- for that error, in mere fpeculation, be tail of their objections; not that I mean figmatized as devoid of piery, as no to go at present into a discullion upon Christians, and as perfons that died unall the imperfections of the oathi I der a tentence of eternal damnation. concur in every one of the oloje Étions And certainly, my Lords, the reprobamade by the moit reverend the Metropo tion of this doctrine, under the qualifi. ditan. But I shall not touch upon these cations of impious, unchristian, and obječtions, because they have been ably damnable, goes to this effect. My flared, and because they are not to the Lords, I beleech you to give a candid purpose of my argument.

attention to this fci uple, as I am confia point to take the objections of scrupu- dent your Lord thips will 10 every fcrue lous Roman Catholicks.

ple. My Lords, i enter into this deMy Lords, the majority of the Ro- tail from a detire of impretling on your man Catholicks who Icruple this oath Lord thips minds, what is very ftrongly are not Papilts in the opprobrious teníe impressed on mine, that the objections of the word they are not the Pope's of these men are not cavils, but fair, courtiers more than the gentlemen of honeft, conscientious fcruples. My the Roman Catholic Committee, who Lords, this fcruple is analogous to that are ready to accept the oath. My which every enlightened man would Lords, the more fcrupulous Roman feel, if he were called upon to decide Catholicks, who object to the terms of upon that, which has fometimes been this oathi, are ready to swear allegiance decidied upon with Jittle ceremony, to the King-they are ready to anjure upon the final doom of virtuous Hao the Pretender-lo renounce the Pupe's thens; of men, who, with a sense of authority in civil and temporal marters; moral obligation, and with sentimenis they are ready to renounce the doctrine, of piety towards the Creator of the unio that faxh is not to be kepe with here- yerle, which might have done no dife

It is my

credit to the professors of Christianity, tion comprehends the Pope's spiritual nevertheless, from the force of exam. authority; for they say, that they must ple and education, acquiesced in the admit that the Pope's Spiritual autho. popular idolatry of their times. My rity docs, indiroctly, by inference and Lords, I believe your Lord hips all implication, interfere with civil governbelieve that there is no name under ment and with civil rights. My Lords, Heaven by which men may be saved, but is ir not manifest that the Pope's supre, the name of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, macy, indirectly, and in speculation, inmy Lords, 1 should be very unwilling terteres with the fovereignty? with the to affert-My Lords, I would refuse to King's supremacy as head of the fwear-that it is matter of my belief, Church? My Lords, with the Constituthat such men as Socrates, Plato, Tully, tion the Pope's tupremacy indirectly in, Seneca, and Marcus Antoninus, who terferes in a part which, I believe, your were every one of them idolaters, are Lordhips hold in lome regard. My now suffering in the place of torment, Lords, it is a consequence from the and are doomed to suffer there to all doctrine of the Pope's fupremacy, tha: cierniry. My Lords, upon this point I no confecrations and ordinations are va. concur in the sentiments of a great or- did, but what emanate from the authority nament of the Roman Church, who of the fee of Rome. If this be the cale, might have been an ornament to the my Lords, the bishops of the Church of pușeți church in the most enlightened England are no bithops. If we are no zimes : “ ubi nunc anima Mirci Tullii bilhops, we have no right to fit in this agat, fortasse non est humani judicii Allembly with your Lordlips; I have pronuntiare; me ceriè non admodum no right to be now holding this argu. averlum habituri sint in ferendis calcu. mont before your Lord thips. My lis, qui sperant illum apud superos Lords, is not this an inter feience, in, sumn à pace frui.” My Lords, wil directly I grant, but indire&tly is it not your Lord hips permit the Roman not an interference with the Confine Catholicks to have the same tenderness tion? My Lords, if we are no bishops, for the memory of Bellarmin and Eral- it is a further consequence that no man mus, which your Lordfhijs would feel is made a priest by virtue of our ordina. for that of virtuous Heathens ?

tions-no priest of ours, therefore, has My Lords, the terms, in which the any just right to any temporalities that Pope's civil authority is renounced, are he may hold of such a nature, as to at. matter of scruple to that divifion of the

tach exclusively to the prietly characRoman Catholicks, which I consider as ter. My Lords, is not this an intertethe majority. My Lords, they are rence with the rights of the subjeci ? ready to renounce the civil authority of My Lords, there are ftriking intiances, the Pope ; but they think that the words that occur at the moment. Many other used in the oath go to the denial of the intiances might be found, in which the Pope's spiritual authority, which they Pope's fpiritual supremacy unquestions cannot conscientiously abjure. The ably interferes, indirectly, with civil terms of the oath, my Lords, are these authority and civil rights; and the most "I do also in my conscience declare, that can be expected of conscientious and solemnly swear, that no foreign Roman Catholicks is, not that they church, prelate, or priest, or assembly Tould renounce all authority carrying of priests, or eçclefiaftical power whai. this interference, for that were to refoever, hath, or ought to have, any ju- nounce the Pope as their spiritual head; risdiction or authonty whatsoever with. but that they thould bind themselves to in this realm, that can directly or indi- Governmeni, that they will never ad rectly affect or interfere with The inde upon thele principles, which in theory pendence, sovereignty, laws, conftitu- they cannot renounce; that, whatever rion, or government thereof, or the they may think (as a matter of opinion) righis, liberries, persons, or properties, about the Pope's fupremacy, they will of the people of the said realm, or any never, in fact, make an attack, or comof them." The power, therefore, ab mit any act of hoftility, against the jured, is all ecclefiaftical power which Conftitution and the Government in cican, directly or indirectly, interfere ther branch, but, on the contrary, will with the fovereignty, conftitution, or defend it. And thele engagements, my government, with public or with pri- Lords, thote Roman Catholicks, who vate rights. My Lords, these scrupu. fcruple this oath, are ready and d sirous ious Catholicks think that this delcrip to give in the most explicit and uncqui;

vocal terms. They say, that they think means of weakening the strength of the themselves " bound by an oath which party. they have already raken, and that they My Lords, the maxim, divide et imare ready to ftrengthen the obligation pera, if it be ever wile, is wise only in by a new oath, to defend, to the utmost desporical governments. My Lords, if of their power, the civil and ecclefiafti. it be wise in such governments, it is becal establidhment of the country, even

cause such governments are radically though all the Cainolic powers in Eu. unjuft; the relation of the governor and rope, with the Pope himself at their the governed to each other

being that of head, were to levy war against the King enemies. But in governments such as for the express purpose

of establishing this, under which we have the happithe Roman Catholic religion.” My nels to live, it is a wicked maxim. In Lords, there are other points in this our Conftitution, the promoting of the path which Roman Catholicks, I think, happiness of the governed is not only must scruple. I believe the gentlemen the duty but the actual obje&t of Goof the Catholic Committee, who de vernment, and the aim of all its operaclared themselves ready to take this tions and of all its measures. In such a oath, will fee fome difficulty in particue government union and harmony among Jar parts of it, when they consider the citizens of ati descriptions is to be de full import of certain terms. But, iny fired, and it should be the endeavour of Lords, I hall go no further at present the Government to promote it, as the in this detail; I will only lay in gene. means of binding the love and affec. sal, that there are parts of the oath tons of all to the Constitution. wliich I myself would refuse to take. But, my Lords, admircing, for a mo

My Lords, I muit observe, that the ment, that we have nothing to do with gentleinen of the Cribotic Committee, the disputes of thele people among and the party that as vich then, who themselves, yet your Lordchips surely scruple no part of its cath, declare that have to do with the justice and equity of they, equally with the furupulous party, your own proceedings. Now confider, maintain the Pope's tpiritual supremacy; my Lords. Upon what principle were they are shocked, trii the denial of it the penal iaws againit the Roman Ca. Thould be imputed to them.

Your tholicks first introduced ? Certainly upLord thips, therefore, perceive that the on this principle, that the Roman Ca. two parties are pertecily equal in the tholicks in general were ditaffected sube degree of affection, or disaffection, rake jects. Upon what principle would the it which way you will, that they bear Legislature now relieve any Roman Cato the Government of the country. tholicks from those laws ? Certainly, Therefore, I cannot fee upon what my Lords, upon this principle, that the principie a relief, which is granted to Legislature acquits those, to whom it the one, should be denied to the other. extends the relief, of the crime and

It may be laid, this relief is a matter, fulpicion of difaffection. Upon what not of right, but of mere grace and fo- principle is the relief, which is extended vour; and that the person who confers 10 fome, with-held from others ? Cera favour way, at his own will and pica- tainly upon no juft principle but this, furt, prescribe the conditions on which that ihole others till lie, in the eye of he will beltow it. But, my Lords, the the Legislature, under a suspicion of favours of a Government are surely to

dilaffection. Thus, my Lords, by be dispensed by fome rule of diftribu. palling a law which will give only a tion, and that rule ought to be an equal partial relief, you will impress a stigma one. My Lords, it ought not to be a ot dilaffcction upon the party not rerule of arbitrary election and reproba- lieved; which, in my judgement, if lion, making a diftinction of persons, there be no ground for suspecting them, where there is no difference of charac would be the height of cruelty and in-' ter, in the degree of civil merit, justice,

My Lords, I have heard it faid, not But, my Lords, give me leave to say, in this Houte, but out of doors, that that though your Lordhips would in. the Legislature has nothing to do with deed have nothing to do with any dilo the dilputes of these people among pules among the Roman Catholicke, themselves; that it may be rather an upon controverted points of their own object of good policy to promote and iu. divinity, the matter and the late of the sıcate thcir dosalions, as it may be a present dispute are such, that your Lord

Thips have much to do with it, in form- imagination sets before me, when, uning a judgement upon the present bill. der the operation of this partial law,

The matter in dispute is the propriety thould it unfortunately receive your of the oath, as it stands in this bill; Lordships' sanction, miscreants of 'base which oath the one party is ready to informers may be enriched with the toraccept, the other 're probates. The tunes, our gaols may be crouded with difpure began in terms of mutual re the persons, and our ítreets may stream fpect and great moderation; but, as it with the blood, of conscientious men, went on, both sides, as is the cale in all and of good fubjects! And of all this disputes, grew warmer. Both sides cruelty, my Lords, if it should take have now lost all teinper; and the quare place, the laws of the country will get Tel, å religious quarrel, my Lords, is the credit. raging The Scrupulous Catholicks My Lords, I am aware that it may

peak of the writings on the other side seem to your Lord thips that there is an as schismatical, scandaloys, and in fam. easy answer to all this: lend the bill Tatory. The Catholic Commiuee charge to a Committee, and amend the oath. the former with inculcating principles My Lords, there is the difficulty. I hofile to society and governinent, and to fear, that we are not competent to make the confiitution and laws of the British such amendments in the oath, as may Empire. ily Lords, these reproaches obviate the mischief. My Lords, look are, I think, unmerited on either Gide; at the fate of the controversy among but they are, for that reason, the stronger the Roman Catholicks. Three of the fymptoms of intemperate heat on both four Roman Catholic Bishops, who call lides. My Lords, this bill, should it themselves the apoftolical vicars for the pass into a law, will not mitigate the four diftricts of this country; three out quarrel, but inflame it; and, as it re of thefe four have promulgated an enenaĉis the penal laws against all those, cyclical letter, in which they reprobate who, from their scrupies about the the oath as it stands in the present bill.; bath, cannot bring themselves within and they go farther; they advance this the benefit of it; the Roman Catholicks principle, that a conscientious Catholick that will be relieved by this bill will be ought not to take any oath, declara ory impowered to inforce those laws against of any opinion upon doctrinal points, their more fcrupulous brethren, with till it has received the approbation of whom they are quarreliny. My Lords, the ecclefiaftical superiors. The gentiethe Biftory of the Church too clearly men of the Catholic Committee exclaim proves, that men, whose minds are in- against this as an extravagant ftretch of slamed with religious controverty, are authority. I confels, my Lords, I see not to be tufted with such weapons. no extravagance in it. I believe, were Ny Lords, when I look at the names of I a Roman Catholick, I thould think the gentlemen who compose the Ca- it my duiy to submit to it. But the tholic Committe, men of high birth, Catholic Committee are indignant une of diftinguished prouity and honour, I der this ufurpation of authority, as they cannot for a moment suppole, that any think it, of the apoftolical vicars; and of them louk pursue the quarrel with a paper has appeared, signed by the their adverfarico in that base manner. gentlemen of the Committce, which I But, my Lords, the leaders of a party know not very well what to call. My cannot alivays command the parlions of Lords, it looks something like an appcal their followers; and your Lordihips to the Pope; and yet I can hardly lupwill have no fecurity that this may not pole, that an appeal to him has been acbe done, but the liberalily and honour tually made, or that this is a copy of a of the individuals. And is it wile or paper fent as a formal appeal to Rome. just, my Lords, to put any innocent Dut the Coinmittce say, “ We appeal man in ihe poster or bis enemy, relying to all the Catholic Churches in the unionly on ite good difpofition of that inc verle, and especially to the first of all my, to tellrain him froin the abule of Catholic churches, the apoliolical feethat power, which you put into his rightly informed.” My Lords, if this hands? My Lords, if the party revered be an appeal to the fee of Rome, or if it by this bill should take ihe advantage, be a notice of an intended appeal-and, which the law will give them, again't my Lords, it must be fomething-it the other party, a houble perfecution should teen that the Legillature cannot will arise. Als Lords, 1 lbudder at the Nur a fiep further. For it would be perScene of terrir and contution which iny fearly nugatory to pass a law to give re.

lief upon the condition of an oath, when point the petitioners at your Lordships." the persons, to whom the relief is of- bar, in their just expectations of relief. fered, are divided into two parties, one My Lords, I call che great Searcher of of which say, “ We cannot take this Hearts to witness, that there is no such oath,” the orhers sav, “We must go to duplicity, no such malice, in my intenRome, and ask the Pope, whether, un tion, My Lords, if your Lordships der the circumstance of the interdict of should be moved by what has been said the ecclefiaftical superiors, we may take by me, or what may be said with more the oath or no. And, my Lords, fup. ability by others to the same effect, to pose you amend the oath; what affure reject this bill, rather than that the Roance can your Lord Mhips have, that the man Catholicks should be finally unreapostolical vicars will approve the oath lieved, I would pledge myself to your as amended by your Lord fhips? If they Lord thips, to the Roman Catholicks, Mould not approve it, the more scrupu- and to my country, to bring in a bill, lous Roman Catholicks will not take it. carly in the next feflion, which fould

My Lords, the remedy for this seems not be pregnant with the mischiefs to me to be unique. The remedy would which seem to me the certain confer be, to find an oath which may be fuffi- quences of this bill. But I should hope, cient for the security of Government, that your Lordships would not leave a and which the majority of the Roman matter of such moment to the discretion Catholicks have already taken, and the and abilities of any individual Lord, but apostolical vicars, having themselves that your Lorddhips will think propes taken it, must approve.

Such, my

to name a Committee to revise all the Lords, is the oath which was required fubfifting laws against the Roman Caof the Roman Catholicks by the law of tholicks, and to frame a bill for the rea 1778; and I am very sorry that that peal of such as may with safety be reoath was not adopted in this bill. But, pealed. The only objection that I can from what I have heard, I have much fee to such a measure is the delay; for doubt whether, if we go into a Com- it is much too late in the fellion to begin mittee, we shall be unanimous upon a such a business. But, my Lords, in a motion for substituting that oath instead matter of this magnitude and importof the oath that now stands in the bill. ance, the Legislature should think little And for this rcafon, my Lords, I fear of the delay of a few months; nor the bill is incurable *.

ought the Roman Catholicks themselves My Lords, I have detained you much to murmur at a delay, which may conlonger than I thought to have donc. It duce to put the relief they folicit upon a only remains that I thank your Lord. broad and permanent balis.” thips for the patient attention with Lord Stanbope thought the parties had which I have been honoured, and that I a right to the indulgences the bill went make it my request, that any expreffion to allow; that the objections might be that may have escaped me, in the course obviated in thie Conimittee; and was of a speech in print of language in ma. again any delay. ny parts quite unpremeditated, may be The Duke of Leeds profeffed himself candidly interpreted. My Lords, what to have a high opinion of the complying most of all I deprecate is, that I may dispositions of the Catholicks to the laws not be fufpected of insincerity in my of this country, and that they were enprofessions of an abhorrence of the peo titled to overy indulgence that could by bal laws ; that my objecting to the given them without innovating the Concommitment of this bill may not be ftitution ;. but being of opinion it ought deemed a stratagem of mine, to get rid to be given in a more liberal and extenof the butiness altogether, and disap- five manner than was the case in the pre

fent bill, he was of opinion that adjournIn this apprehenfion the Bishop had the ing it ull the next leliions would give an pleasure to find himself mistaken. In the Committee of the whole House upon the bill opportunity of torming one more congue (June 4th), the oath, as it stood, was.upon their Lorifhips.

nial to what was evidently the wishes of the Bishop's own motion, expunged, and the oath, taken by the Roman Catholicks in

The Bishop of Peterborough thought Freland in the year 1774, with fome very there was not sufficient fecurity for their Night alterations, Tabstituted. The Brith oath not encroaching upon the Protefiant re, is in effect the same with the oath of 1778, ligion ; he had no objection to those of and, of the two, is drawn with the greater the Catholic persualion being relieved accuracy.

from any persecutions, but hoped it might

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