borough Monion Chatham Torrington Hyde Tankerville Efingham Archer Fortefcue Bolton burne Scarborough Abergavenny Wycomb,E.of Shel- Boyle, E. of Corke King Buckinghamshire Afterwards, February 12, a motion was made in a call of the Upper Chamber by a Noble D———, that, for the future, no debate thall be entered on till two days after the queftion is put, or the motion is first made. -'s re De Ponsonby, E of Bef who spoke laft, he must fay, by far the DEBATES in the LOWER CHAMBER. An addrefs being propofed in this Chamber, in answer to the fpeech, a motion was made for the following amendment to it, viz. That this Chamber fhould affure his M- they would proceed to inquire into the causes of the difcontents in his M dominions. Several admitted that there were difcontents. Mr. Call faid there were grievances, and very great ones; that he knew there were great difcontents in the county which he lived in; and that, in his opinion, a change of men would not fatisfy the people, but that there must be fomething more done. The Ay Gfpoke next. His fpeech tended to fhew, that they could not properly take notice of any difcontents, there being nothing before them to warrant fuch a fuppofal; that in the county he lived in he never heard of any grievances, and did not think there was any-body in it, who believed there were any very extraordihary; that, for his own part, he had heard of petitions being in fome places unduly obtained, but that he declined, for the prefent, giving any opinion about their legality, or what might be the confequence of them, feeing fo many perfons of diftinction were concerned in them; and concluded against the motion. G. Ow fpoke next. He Laid the petitions were no proof of any general difcontent; and that in one county, that which he had the honour to reprefent, he knew the majority of the freeholders were not for the meafure; that the principal Gentlemen in the county were not concerned in it; that very few of the Justices of Peace had figned the petition, and very few of the Clergy. He was anfwered by Str A Ay, who obferved, that though he was a friend and well-wisher to the Gentleman had fhew fhew that there were few or no principal Gentlemen among them. C Lord Jfpoke next, then Mr. Sheriff T-fend, and Mr. Ay of Buckinghamshire, all to the fame purpofe. CIB-e rofe. He urged the public difcontents, and brought feveral inftances of the M--r--'s imprudent conduct, mentioned the matter of the C- -s, and particularly fhewed the abfurd conduct of one of the Governors they had fent over (Lord Bt.) He infifted on the M- ➡'s having occafioned difcontents at home, and having facrificed, as he had too much reafon to believe, the honour of the British fl-g. He defired to know, whether orders had not been iffued from fome quarter, that we fhould not infift on the honours due to our flag; and he called upon Sir E- H- to fay, whether all that was fair had been done. Sir E difclaimed knowing of any orders to that purpose. Lord N- made but a poor defence of the M-y, and ufed fome arguments, that, when they came to be examined into, turned very strongly against him. His chief arguments against there being any appearance of difcontent were, that the majority of the c -ties had not petitioned; that, in thofe which had petitioned, very few Gentlemen of great property, very few Juftices of the Peace, and very few Clergymen had figned the petitions. He particularly infifted upon the county of M -er. -X. He averred that not one Juftice of Peace had figned. He afferted the fame nearly with respect to WHe recited the proceedings of that Chamber in the laft feffion, with regard to the expulfion of Mr. W- ; though he entered not into the defence of the incapacitating refalution, to fhew, by any authorities in law, its legality, (fo what he here faid was idle, every body knowing the facts) but avowed his former opinion, infifting on their authority to determine all e-ion matters, and that their determination was final. The patriotic Serjeant fpoke next. He thewed the neceffity of the amendment; that the non expected redrefs; and that for them to refufe any inquiry into those difcontents was to drive the pple to depair; that, be the difcontents well or ill founded, an inquiry ought to be made, and fince they had confelled there were difcontents, no reafon could be given why the caufes of them should not be inquired into. X were not With respect to the Juftices of the Peace, he believed thofe of Mconfidered in fo honourable a light; that if he was fpeaking of a Gentleman of that county, it would not be thought an additional compliment to fay of him, that he was in the commiffion of the peace. He ex All who spoke on this fide of the question were exceeding beld and spirited, and did, as it were, fet at defiance the power of An. The military Marquis fpoke next. preffed a kind of forrow for his paft conduct. He faid he was diffatisfied with the voice he had given upon a former queftion; that there were difcontents, and he wished the caufes of them to be inquired into. GCy got up next and the minority thought he was going to make the fame de claration, and indeed he fet out as if he meant to do fo; but he fo qualified his expreffions, that for fome time no perfon could tell for which fide he would declare. He faid there were difcontents; that they ought to be inquired into, but that he fhould give his vote against the amendment, because it was no part of the fpeech. Besides, fuch a general mention of complaints was to adopt the complaint made against them, and the prayer for their d- -ion, than which there could be nothing more abfurd. With respect to the refolution, he had been, and ftill was of cpinion that it was legal, but that he would not fet up his opinion for law. Sir F-cher N n got up next. He began with obferving upon the question, (viz. alteration) that he could not fee how they could alter their judgment; that he looked upon them as a Court, whose determination was final, there being no appeal from their decifion, they being the dernier refort in e-ion matters; that he did not fpeak this with any view to prejudice the question; but that, when it came on, it might be confidered, that there was no precedent of their altering their judgment; that if they argued from analogy, there was nothing like it in the Conftitution; that the judg ments of the Upper Chamber were final; that he had thought, and ftill did, the preceeding legal, though he was ready to be convinced by the opinion of others; but that, if a reverfal of that judgment should be thought neceflary, it was his humble opinion an act would be the moft legal and conftitutional way of fetting the matter right. Mr. Be got up now. He began with reprehending Sir Fl-r for giving his private opinion in a matter new in debate, at the fame time not faying one fyllable to the queftion, for fetting the matter of the petitions right; that it was fuch an anfwer to what had been afferted of a general difcontent, to fay that the majority of the Cies had not petitioned, as he had never heard. What, is it not a bad Ge vern verarment, unless all the c-ies of Ereprefent it as fuch? Is there no proof of the majority of fders being difcontented, unless a majority of the principal Gentlemen in the petitioning c- -ies, unless the Juftices of the Peace fign the petition? Are the fers of no account? The Gentlemen have many ways of fecuring to themfelves an interest in the Gent; penfons, places, being admitted to the levees of great men; but what have the final f- -lders? They have no weight, no fhare in the G-ment, if they are to be excluded the privilege of e---ing Re----es, and complaining of g-va-s in the way they have done. He here made a moft pathetic allu on to the parable of the poor man's lab, and faid this was the f-lders lamb. But what an argument is it to fay that the peions do not exprefs any general difcontent, because the principal Gentlemen do not fign them? The Gentlemen, it is well known, are much influenced; but the f―lders are above all menace, all fear, all influence. The Juftices of Peace do not fign? The Juftices of Peace are under the inmediate appointment of the C--- n; and, if it were that they did not fign, I fhould hope it would be one of the laft arguments againft the petitions, if ever it can be any. Good God! Sir, is there no difcontent, if ALL the -ies do not petition? What would they have that Government to be, where every Member of the community is to complain against it? I never heard of fuch an argument as this before, and hope it will now be for the last time. There never was any thing like the prefent complaint; not one oppofite p-n or addrefs from the time the firit petition was prefented. Look into the history of former times, into Charles the Second's time, into other periods, when petitions were prefented. Were there not petitions against petitions? The Whigs petitioning one thing, the Tories against it; two parties always oppofing one another; but there never was any thing like the fent. Another thing they uige against petitions is, that, where the M-x P— intimated many grievances, the other counties rejected them as groundlefs. What! because they do not mention them, but confine themfelves to the dragon, the large grievance, is that an evidence that they think they do not exist? I was one of thofe who advifed the not mentioning them, but confining the complaints to the vi. lation of e-ion; not that I thought he (1 eaning Lord N-) would represent that they did not exift, for there are a great many other very great griev ances, but IT alone was fufficient to urge pre -n a dtion; I faid, Sir, IT alone was fufficient; and we ought all, Sir, to fall down and proftrate ourselves at his M--'s feet, and implore a di-ion, for what we.. have been guilty of. It is our bounden duty to do it. Some of the best, the only patriotic Members in the Long Parliament of Charles II. the Penfion Parliament, as it was called, went as far as this. I am not at liberty now to go into an argument upon the incapacitating measure. I will only fay, that all the fophiftry of the greatest lawyers has not been able to convince one man of its legality, nor even to raise a doubt about it. He here faid fomething as to the argument that had been alledged of the clergy not having figned, obferving, that church preferments did always molt powerfully operate with them. Notwithstanding, he faid, he kaew fome that had figned; and as to what had been faid, that the f---holders did not know, did not understand what they were about; he knew the epithe:s base-born and fcum of the earth had been applied to them, and now it was contended the opinion of the Gentlemen was only to be regarded. But why are not f---holders Gentlemen? What is there that makes the freeholders base born, if the Gentlemen, as they are called, are not? I know not, our Conftitution knows not. A f-holder is as good a Gentleman as any in the kingdom. I am afhamed of the arguments that have been used to fhew that there are no difcontents, or just grounds of complaint. They are fuch, that, if they were good, no difcontent, no ground. of complaint could ever exist. But the A -n themselves do not agree. For, while fome in high offices contend there are none, others in as high offices, frankly admit there are, and that an inquiry ought to be made into the causes of them. I muft detain you, Sir, with a few obfervations upon the M- --r's fpeech. He has not thought fit to fay a fyllable or thofe difcontents. He proceeded now to state the affairs of A- a, and obferved, that they had brought the affairs of that country into fuch a fituation, into fuch difficulty, that wisdom itfelf could not devife the means of setting them right; and that they had reversed every principle of prudent conduct. In this part he particularly exerted himself. Then he went into another part of the fp-h. They have told Europe that we are afraid of going to war, and they have given one of the frongest reasons in the world, the want of fupplies. I am àfraid of its truth; but that is not always to be told. What inuft this country, that ufed to give law to Europe ? &c. &c.. Der fcribing tlemen. It would be well to remember, Sit, fcribing the miferies of his country, its dangers from without, its difcontents within, addreffing himself to the S. more particularly, you have heard, faid he, the very existence of this House questioned, its authority contemned; and can you fit ftill, unmoved, and hear this? No! the very chair you fit in thakes; it is without a foundation; do you not feel it ftir? do you not feel it rub against you? You have heard, today, Sir, what cannot be heard among us, the R-ve of a very great c-y (looking to Sir G. S.) declare, that a refolution, a judgment of ours, was illegal; that he told his c- -ts fo. You heard him patiently. He ought to be fent to the *****. Many the moft refpectable prefent, fpeaking for their cs, have faid the fame thing They ought to be fent to the fame place. I ought to be fent. I have faid this day, what in the ordinary courfe of things could not pafs unpunified. But we are not, in the ordinary courfe of a first day's meeting, to echo back the words of the Mr. We must not be in the ordinary courfe. We must not be like the horned cattle in the hold, while the ship of the state goes fimooth-question with the emendation was carried in ly down the still stream of the river. the P It had been urged by fome of the minifterial party, that every undue influence, every art had been practifed, to bring about ns, by writing, private meetings, &c. In anfwer, he faid, What arts! Was writing and printing undue influence? And are we not at liberty to tell our c-nts what we think upon, what we do? I never heard before that writing and printing were undue influence. What art had been used! nothing but what was honest, that braved the day; an art that I hope will ever be used. If any thing unconftitutional, if any thing illegal has been done, punish the offenders. If the ps are groundless, punish the promoters of those p- -s. Nothing of this fort has been attempted. The art, believe me, Sir, is a very honeft one You hear nobody recede, nobody disclaim the art. It was an art to preferve the conftitution, the form of gt. Don't think I fay it is the beft g- -nm-nt: No, by no means: It may be in theory; but let us at leaft preferve the forms of a conftitution. The opinion of the f- s has been ridiculed and reprefented as the effect of ignorance. The opinion of the f- -s, of the yeomen of this country, and their fons, is not to be fo treated. They have good fenfe, at leaft, if they have not all the ingenuity, all the fophiftry of fome Gentlemen. They are an honeft, a most respectable body. We have heard a great deal of the principal Cen 5 On the 25th of January, in the fame Chambr, the prefent ftate of affairs was taken under confideration; a question was moved, that an important measure, which had been taken, was a violation of the conftitution of the fociety, on which an emendation was alfo moved, to change the words violation of to confiftent with ;' which the affirmative The motion thus amended, that the faid measure was confiftent with the conftitution,' also paffed in the affirma tive. The numbers on the above question were 244 and 180, majority 64. Then Mr. D made a motion to know, whether acts of the fociety were not fubject to the laws of the land; and, if fo, whether, in the cafe of Mr. ——, they did not act repugnant to the faid laws.-Thofe on the fide of the chair readily granted the firft part of the motion, and therefore urged it would be ridiculous to make it a question; but, as to the amendment, they utterly denied it, the fociety having an inherent right, they faid, to expel any Member of their commu nity, who appeared to them, either by his public or private conduct, to be unworthy of a feat in that chamber.-The debates then became very general, and numbers on both fides fpoke very warmly, when Mr. B-k got up.-He began his fpeech (contrary to his ufual custom, as he divested himself of all his metaphors, and fpoke merely argumentatively) by fhewing the foundation, authority, and prerogative of the fociety. He pointed out wherein they were a fociety by themfelves, and where they were dependent on the laws of the land. He next obferved, as the members of this fociety were but the dels of the pe, they had not, nor could have, a right 'o expel any member after he had been re-chofen by them. He mer tioned, tioned, he faid, the word re-chofen, because, in a first instance, (for any cause that appeared to them fufficient) they were intitled to expel, but that expulfion, once being made, was the punishment for that offence; and it. was contrary to the very effence of the rules of this fociety, as well as the laws of this land, that a criminal fhould fuffer twice for the fame offence; therefore, if a Member was once expelled, and afterwards re-chofen, he poffeffed every right, both by law and reafon, to be their Member.' On the 31st of January, Mr. D-II waved his former question, viz. That the determination of this Chamber fhall be agreeable to the law of the land, and the known law and custom of Parliament; and made the following motion, viz. That this Chamber has no power to incapacitate a Member but by an exprefs act of Parliament: This was debated till one o'clock, when L-d N-th made the following motion: That the Chairman do leave the chair, which paffed in the affirmative, there being For the question Against Majority which diffolved the Committee. 226 186 On the 11th of February, in the fame Lower Chamber, the state of the nation was again taken into confideration; and Mr. D-ll moved, That, for the future, no excife or revenue Officer fhould have a v-te at e-ct-ns; after long debates, the queftion was put, when there appeared Against the question For Majority 263 75° The report of a certain Committee was to have been received the 18th of February. Previous thereto, SW-Mh observed, that, where two questions were Send blended into one, it was regular, and agreeable to usage, to split the propofitions into two feparate queftions; and, for the propriety of this proceeding, the chair was referred to.-The Prefident entered into a difcuffion of the point referred to him, and concluded in the negative. He added, that, where a question was to be referred to him, in his judgment, candor required that it should be communicated before-hand, that he might fearch for precedents, and give his opinion with his best ability. On the other hand, SW knew of no obligation that required fuch previous intercourfe. The animadverfion of the Prefident upon this declaration was thought to imply a charge against the Member of the Club; and a motion was made, that the President had spoken in a manner injurious to the character of a Mem ber of the Club; and in a style that controuled the courfe of a free inquiry. The motion was feconded, and drew on warm and eager altercations. It was difficult to afcertain the precife words of the President or the Member; different conftructions were put upon the words of both. Each explained himself-others explained the words differently. A motion was made to adjourn the Club, and feconded. The Prefident faid he did not chufe to fhrink from any question, and defired to take the sense of the Club. The motion to adjourn was withdrawn. The matter in difpute was often compromised, and as often broke out afresh: one moment it died away, the next it re vived; but, at the defire of the President, the queftion upon the original motion was finally put, and, upon a divifion of the Society, the numbers were, for the Separation, 174, against it 243. And upon another divifion, fome time after, Whether they fhould agree with the Committee, who had debated the question formerly, the numbers were 237 and 159. To the PROPRIETORS of the UNIVERSAL MAGAZine. you the tranflation of a paffage vol. 1. p. 396. As it relates to husbandry, and the doctrine therein feems to be well founded, I think it deferves to be communicated to the public. The author is faid to be Baron Munckhawfen, a Hanoverian Nobleman of great reputation, &c. on ac count of his fagacity in Natural History. Ihall not enter into a detail of all his notions on this fubject, but refer the curious to the treatife from whence the following paffage was extracted, where he will find many particulars relating to microfcopical objects worth reading. I A Remedy against Smut in Corn. Smut in corn is often fo abundant as to occupy a third or fourth part of the crop, and all the grains are filled with a black duft inftead of flour. Accurate oblervations with the microscope and above a hundred experiments have convinced me, that this duft con fifts of globules fmall and pellucid, with internal black spots, which are the eggs of infinitely minute infects, or rather worms. Out of thefe eggs, when placed in a fituation moist and warm to a certain degree, comes forth, or rather is excluded, an egg-fhaped animal, which burfts at the extremity, and leaves a vak |