had been sustained by suitors in the court felt himself the more at liberty to offer of chancery, and by appellants to the this impartial testimony to the merits of House of Lords, the hon. gent. proceeded the noble and learned lord, as he had not to observe, that, in his opinion, a division the honour of any closer connexion with of the offices which the lord chancellor him, than that which in the discharge of held might probably afford some allevia- his professional duties the business of the tion of the evil. The office of a judge in court necessarily induced. Adverting bankrupt cases might possibly be sepa- however to the question before the House, rated with advantage from that of the he observed, that one very material reason lord chancellor. If the emoluments of which might have produced an increased lord chancellor and speaker of the House delay in the proceedings of the court of of Lords conjoined have not been thought chancery, was a considerable alteration sufficient without the addition of those re- that had gradually taken place in the form sulting from the situation of judge on of those proceedings. Perhaps no time bankrupt cases, 4 or 5,000l. a year might had occurred in which such delays as be granted to supply the deficiency. those mentioned by his hon. and learned Some persons perhaps might think that friend did not exist. They were frequently the office of speaker of the House of Lords attributable to the agents of the suitors ought to be separated from the offices held rather than to the court, which thus unby the lord chancellor. He did not, how-justly because unfoundedly incurred the ever, affect to propose any specific re-popular censure. But however great medy; he had merely thrown out these suggestions for the consideration of parliament, but he declared his determination never to abandon the subject while he had a seat in that House. He regretted that the business had not fallen into the hands of one more competent to treat it with ability, and concluded by moving, "That a committee be appointed to inquire into the arrears of causes now remaining for hearing in the court of chancery, and to report the same to the House, with their opinion as to the best mode of relieving the suitors; and that the said Committee do inspect the journals of the House of Lords to ascertain the number of appeals and writs of error." Sir A. Piggott, though he was fully persuaded that his hon. and learned friend was influenced only by motives of public duty in bringing forward this subject, yet recommended him to withdraw his motion for the present, a step which would not prevent him from renewing it at any future period, should he find that the evils of which he complained continued to exist, and that no measure had been adopted to obviate them. Situated as he had long been in the court of chancery, it was impossible for him not to do to the noble and learned lord who at present held the great seal the justice to which he was so fully entitled. It did not appear to him to be possible that any man could ever have devoted himself more completely to the public service than that noble lord had done in the performance of the difficult, arduous, and important duties which he had been called upon to discharge. He might be the evil, the mode proposed by his hon. and learned friend did not appear to him to be the remedy best calculated to remove it. The venerable antiquity of the situation of Lord Chancellor-its high importance in the state-its close connexion with the crown, made it a subject which those who, without meaning any imputation on his hon. and learned friend, were, perhaps, more experienced than he could possibly be, trembled to touch. He allowed, however, that some remedy might be necessary. He had no doubt, after the notice which the motion of his hon. and learned friend occasioned, that the noble and learned lord would himself give to the subject all the attention which it demanded. He had no doubt also that it would excite the attention of the other members of his Majesty's government. If a legislative proceeding should in consequence be judged necessary, he was sure that no consideration of emolument would be allowed to stand in the way of any remedial measure.-At the present period of the session, when every thing indicated its approaching close, it would be impracticable, even were a Committee appointed, that it could make any progress useful to the public. But, he conceived, that the subject ought in any case to be left to the deliberation of those persons whose authority and experience qualified them most eminently to investigate it as it deserved. He repeated therefore his recommendation to his hon. and learned friend to withdraw his motion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought, without going into any great detail on the subject, it must be obvious to every one that there were great arrears in the court of chancery. This circumstance was felt by no one more than by the noble lord who had been mentioned. If it would be any satisfaction to the hon. gent., he could inform him that the subject had been taken into serious consideration. There appeared to be no way of remedying the evil complained of, but by bringing the subject before the House, and letting those with whom the evil originated know, that unless the recurrence of such causes of complaint were prevented, proper measures would be taken for proceeding against them. Throughout the business it was most satisfactory to find the noble lord had taken special care to preserve from injury those individuals whose interests might be endangered by the regulations of the court. - Mr. M. A. Taylor appealed to the candour and good sense of the House, if it was likely he should have made his motion had the statement of his hon. friend been made before. All he had asked, and all he wanted, was that the subject should be fairly taken into consideration, and proper means provided to remove the grievance and prevent its recurrence. After what had passed therefore, he should, with the leave of the House, consent to withdraw his motion, wishing it at the same time, to be understood, that if proper steps were not taken to remedy the evil, he would renew it early next session. The motion was then withdrawn. [ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITIONS-ADJOURNED DEBATE.] The order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate upon the motion made upon Friday last, That the several Petitions of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, which have been presented to the House in this session of parliament, be referred to a Committee, being read, sion. The compliment paid them by the hon. mover upon this proof of increased liberality they beg to decline, though with all private respect for the quarter from which it comes. Of that election it becomes me to speak with peculiar reserve, but I can say without offence, that the success of the noble person was produced by other causes and for other merits than those which have any connection with the Catholic cause. My constituents object to these petitions, because they consider them as injurious to the civil and religious establishments of their country, and I state this with the more satisfaction, as it is an opinion which is in unison with my own. The Petitions before the House pray an unqualified removal of all legal incapacities under which the Catholics of Ireland labour. They offer no conditions,-no securities whatever they manifest no disposition to do so, nor any inclination to submit to any conditions that are offered, or to give any securities that may be required; and it is upon these unqualified petitions proposed that we should go into a Committee. To enter into a statement of general principles applying to these subjects, which have been so long and so recently discussed, would be an unjust invasion of the time of the House. The practical wisdom of mankind has pretty generally acquiesced in the opinion that it is fit that there should be a national religion connected with the state, but with a liberal toleration for those who are of different religious persuasions, not affecting the safety of the general establishments of the country. Upon these principles the constitution of our own country has rested in its best and most enlightened times.—It has prospered under their influence; and a constitution so formed, and so happily prosperous in its effects, ought not to be hazarded but for causes the gravest in their own nature, the most defined in their extent, the most pressing in their necessity, and the most assured in the beneficial consequences which are expected to result from them. Sir William Scott rose and spoke to the following purport:-Sir-I feel it my duty to offer myself to the notice of the House at as early a period as is permitted, because I have not merely to state my own sentiments, but those of the respectable body which I have the honour of repre- Upon the subject of connection besenting, and by whom I am instructed to tween the civil and religious establishstate their opposition to the prayer of the ments, it rather appeared to me, that the petitioners. They have been given to un-right hon. mover did not very exactly adderstand that their late election of a Chancellor has been considered in this House as implying a departure from those principles which they professed upon the subject, when it formerly came under discus here to the same principles in every part of his very eloquent speech. Certainly in a part of it he had laid down principles that pretty strongly militated against the legality of such a connection. He laid down, in broad terms, that religion was a matter entirely between the conscience of the individual and the Creator; that the state had nothing to do with it; that where it did interfere it wandered out of its proper functions, and encroached upon the sovereignty of the Supreme Being. But he did likewise admit in another part of his speech, that " If a hostile army was now to land in Ireland, whilst the Pope was in his present condition, that the spiritual authority of that pontiff might be most formidably employed against the safety of that country ;" and how? by the influence which that spiritual authority has over the consciences of Catholics. If so, he admits the position, that religious opinions may possibly be attended with civil dangers, that the state has an interest in checking, and a right to check the activity of such opinions; a right to employ means of self-defence, to consult its own safety, and certainly not to entrust the holders of such opinions with such portions of its own civil authority as may, under possible circumstances, be applied to its ruin. If so, what becomes of the unqualified assertion, that the state has nothing to do with the religious opinions of its subjects. It is admitted that there are possible and not very improbable cases, in which it must possess and exercise the right. Attributing to the latter part of that speech, all the praise of eloquence that belonged to it, I cannot but think that the merit of just, and correct, and guarded opinion, belonged pre-eminently to the former. thing passed within the memory of the youngest gentleman in this House, that might not suggest something of the same kind to those who would be disposed to use it? I am confident the House will hardly deem it just in reviewing the history of that country, to confine all the blame to one party, or to think it right that all the transactions of the one should be forgotten, whilst those of the other are to be recorded in brass or marble. I agree in the principle that all should be mutually forgiven. That all should be forgotten may be more questionable in considering a measure of prospective regulation. To turn one's back entirely upon all history and all experience has not usually been deemed an act of true political wisdom. I now pass to what is more properly the object of our present consideration; the petitions themselves and the motion proposed by the right hon. member. The petitions, as I observed, propose nothing but an unqualified repeal, and they do this in perfect conformity to their former applications; and the motion for a Committee does not itself propose any thing more. But the right hon. mover, in his speech, opens another view of things; for be expressly states that the appointment of this Committee, is for the purpose of considering the terms on which the petitions are to be complied with, the right hon. mover admitting, without reserve, that without terms this compliance cannot be given. It does not occur to me that in any of the former discussions upon this subject, this was ever before admitted or To another part of the right hon. gent.'s suggested; the arguments of the right speech I shall advert but shortly likewise; hon. gent., and of those who argued in that is, to the part of it connected with the favour of the petitions, adhered closely to immediate history of Ireland, and to the un- the prayer of the petitions, by contending happy contests which have taken place at for the propriety of an unqualified repeal, different times in that country. I decline as matter of clear unqualified right and entering into a subject painful in its na- justice. The discovery that it ought to be ture, and which can hardly be touched limited by conditions is rather recent ; without exciting sensations which I should and I should have been glad to have be very unwilling to revive for a moment. learnt what circumstances have led to it. He has painted in strong colours the op- Certainly no substantial change in the conpressions under which the Catholics of dition of the pontiff, who was at that time that country had laboured; but may 1 be as much under the dominion of the French permitted to ask if it is quite fair to re- emperor as at present, the only perceivpresent all these as the effects of Protes-able difference being, that he was then tant aggression; without any provocation of any species at any time? and consequently without any justification or excuse? Has nothing taken place within the two last centuries that might, to an eager mind, furnish materials for unkind reflections upon their opponents? Has no in liberâ custodiâ, and he is now, unfortu nately, in arctâ custodia; the power and influence of Napoleon, to be exercised upon his mind, was as formidable at that time as now; and the influence of the Pope himself over the minds of Catholics, has, I presume, undergone no alteration. I am at a loss, therefore, to find what it is that rendered the unqualified repeal so highly expedient at that time, and so totally inadmissible at the present. Suppose, however, the Committee formed, what is to be their employment? to take into consideration petitions which the right hon. mover deems it impossible to comply with, unless accompanied with qualifications. Are they to take into consideration petitions acknowledged by the mover to be inadmissible upon their own terms, and then to try their luck in finding out conditions on which they might deem it safe to comply, but which conditions there is no reason whatever for supposing the petitioners will accept? I think we have every reason to infer from the language of the petitions, that no such change has taken place in the minds of the petitioners, as I have remarked in the arguments of their advocates; they do not seem to have hit upon the discovery that conditions are now indispensable; their demand of the repeal is still unconditional. The conclusion therefore is, that if both parties are consistent, the appointment of a committee can lead to nothing. Because if the committee acts upon the principle of exacting conditions, it will in effect negative the petition; and if the committee does not exact them, the petitioners must negative the result of the committee's labours. The right hon. mover has acted fairly by the House, in declaring what is the species of security he would require, viz. a domestic nomination of their prelates, which he conceived would be a complete defence against the dreaded interposition of French influence over the Catholics of Ireland. Was the right hon. mover enabled to give any assurance that this security would be furnished? No such thing: the hon. gent. has only rested upon his own reasonings, that it was fit it should be furnished, and thence inferred that it might probably be expected. But surely he cannot have forgot how little, in the event at least, the same premises led to the same conclusion, upon the proposition of the Veto. He has with great force contended that that would be the most natural and safe security that could be resorted to the fittest therefore to be adopted; and yet he has admitted without reserve, that to obtain that is a groundless expectation. Considerations of propriety and fitness, therefore, (as they strike his mind) are no sufficient grounds VOL. XVII. for a rational expectation of success in the offer. What reason has he to hope that the proposition he wishes to substitute would meet with a better fate and fortune than his favoured Veto? I confess, that without knowing distinctly the grounds on which the right hon. gent. builds his hopes, it appears to me infinitely less probable that this scheme of domestic nomination would be acceded to by the Catholics, than the rejected Veto. It was not very exactly, or indeed at all set forth in such a detail as could at all instruct us in the real nature of the remedy proposed, how this domestic nomination was to be exercised. Is the power of nomination to reside in the other prelates of the church? Are they expected to nominate independently of the Pontiff, from whom they derive their own spiritual authority? Is it at all likely that they would concur in a form of appointment so little consonant to the general sense and constitution of their church? If the laity are to share in the nomination, would that be less than an entire schismatical defection from the whole of their ecclesiastical establishment? And gentlemen will remember that the discipline and constitution of their church make neither a small nor an insignificant part of the religious faith of that communion. They are fundamental points-matters of high and important orthodoxy; the unity of the church, the regular devolution of authority from the sovereign pontiff to the prelates, to be by them communicated to inferior pastors, are essentially connected with the most vital offices of religion. Is it to be supposed that all this would be sacrificed by the general body of the Catholics of Ireland for the attainment of the present object? I see nothing in the history of that people that should induce us to expect it. They rejected the Veto with horror and disdain; I honour them for a conscientious adherence to the principles of their faith in so rejecting it. But I must honestly confess, that the reverence which I feel for that conduct would be much diminished, if I saw that they were disposed to adopt the present proposal, which goes to a much wider departure from the doctrines of that church, than the proposition of the Veto itself. The Veto, if admitted, would give his Majesty merely a negative; and this, I think, has been rightly enough admitted by Dr. Milner to be a mere shadow," a thing of shew, but of no real efficacy. N [2] But this proposal of a domestic nomination, (however that is designed to be executed, of which as yet we have received no information) instead of merely giving his Majesty a concurrent jurisdiction, shoulders the pontiff entirely out of the business, and devolves it into hands which are as yet unknown from any description with which the right honourable gentleman has favoured us. In such a course of things, what becomes of the Sovereignty of the pontiff, or the unity of the church! If I can judge from any thing that I have been able to collect respecting the faith of that church, I repeat the assertion without any diffidence, that the proposal suggested is at a much wider distance from the principles entertained by the Catholics on such subjects, than the Veto itself, and therefore that there is much less probability of its acceptance. mities! I answer, I observe no indication of such a disposition on the part of the Catholics of Ireland: I see no inclination to withdraw from their allegiance to the person whom they consider certainly as their spiritual sovereign, or to usurp upon his prerogatives, because he is under the lash of a tyrant, who in terms replete with perjury and falsehood professes to respect him. I see no such inclination in the Catholic laity of Ireland; still less in their Catholic bishops. I know that there are in all religious persuasions men who sit loose enough to the distinctive opinions of their sect, or, as the fashionable phrase is, are extremely liberal on the subject of opinions of that nature. There are likewise persons in this particular communion of Christians, highly respectable in their rank and situations in life, and for whom, in consequence of much private interBefore I pursue this matter further, I course, I have all possible respect, also wish to be informed by the right hon. entertain a system of opinions in which I gent., how he proposes that this measure must believe them to be perfectly sincere, is to be carried into effect in a manner though I must consider those opinions to consistent with Catholic principles; for be, as far as my own individual judgment proposing to carry it into effect upon goes, collected as it has been from the other principles would amount to little in perusal and consideration of canons and point of real utility. I could not but ob- other ancient writings, not so clearly reserve (he will excuse the remark) that he concileable with the principles of the slurred over the matter of confirmation Catholic church. But if the matter were and investiture in rather a rapid and even so clear that their opinions were perindistinct manner, as a matter unworthy fectly reconcileable with the proper dogof our deliberate consideration. I can- mas of the Catholic church, still I mainnot quite agree to that view of the tain that the opinions expressed by the matter: but before I come to that, I beg bishops and pastors of that church, supto ask him, how this machine of domestic posing them to be ever so erroneous, are nomination is to be put upon the wheels? those by which the faithful in that church Is the pontiff to be consulted, or is he not are likely to be governed, and that those If he is to be consulted, how can that be opinions exclude all hope that this project done in his present captivity? Can he of domestic nomination can be acceded accept any concordat but such as is dic- to by the general body of Catholics in tated by his gaoler Napoleon? And I Ireland. The bishops and pastors are, acbeg to ask what sort of concordat is likely cording to the principles of that church, to be approved by that inexorable oppres- the depositaries and organs of its faith sor, which comes to him under the de- under the pontiff; and if their judgments scription, that it is intended to prevent the upon the matter differ from those of the success of French interference in Ireland! noblemen and gentlemen who are willing Let any man weigh that question and its to negociate upon terms, there can be probable solution in his own mind. Sup- little doubt whose judgment will prevail posing such a concordat not made, is this with the general body of Catholics. What Catholic church in Ireland to usurp the the judgments of those persons are upon functions of this pontiff, whilst he is lan- this matter, may be learnt from a pamphguishing in an obscure and helpless cap- let lately published by their accredited tivity, without his knowledge and appro- agent, himself a prelate of the church, and bation? Can any man venture such a certainly a person of considerable learnsupposition against all historical, all theo- ing, and of an intrepid sincerity in the Jogical knowledge? What! take to them- avowal of his opinions. I mean Dr. Milselves the peculiar attributes of that per- ner. In that publication it is stated, sonage, on account of his temporal cala-"That you may as well attempt to pluck |