The House (according to Order) was adjourned dur ing Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for continuing and granting to His "Majefty certain Duties upon Malt, Mum, Cyder, and "Perry, for the Service of the Year One Thousand "Seven Hundred and Eighty-four."

After fome time the House was refumed:

And the Lord Scarfdale reported from the Com mittee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and "directed him to report the fame to the House, without any Amendment."

This Day George Lord Audley took the Oaths, and made and fubfcribed the Declaration, and alfo took and fubfcribed the Oath of Abjuration, pursuant to the Sta

tutes.

Moved, "That the Judges may be fummoned to attend this Houfe, in order to give their Advice in "Point of Law upon the Bill now depending in Par"liament, for vefting the Affairs of the East India "Company in the Hands of certain Directors," &c.

The Question was put thereupon?

It was refolved in the Negative.

This Day Robert Earl of Harborough took the Oaths, and made and subscribed the Declaration, and also took and fubfcribed the Oath of Abjuration, purfuant to the Statutes.

The Order of the Day being read for the fecond Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act for establishing "certain Regulations for the better Management of the "Territories, Revenues, and Commerce of this King"dom in the East Indies ;" and for hearing Counfel against the faid Bill; and for the Lords to be fummoned:

Counsel were accordingly called in; and the faid Bill was read a fecond Time.

Then Mr. Rous was heard on behalf of the East India Company against the Bill.

The Charter of King William read.

Then Mr. Rous called Mr. Thomas Morton, and feveral other Witneffes, who were fworn, and examined as follows: (videlicet)

any original Grants or Inftruments between the Eaft "India Company and the Indian Powers?"

A. "Yes; one in particular that was made between "Lord Clive and the Nabob of Bengal, of the 15th of Auguft, 1765."

Q. "Have you Accefs to the Company's Records?" A. "I have."

Q. "If there had been any other original Treaties, "fhould you, in all Probability, have seen them?" A. "I fhould."

Then Mr. Morton produced a Book, containing Copies of Fermans and Hufbulhock hams, received in London in the Year 1718. The Grants were all in the Year 1717. The Fermans and Hufbulhookhams were read. He was directed to withdraw.

Then Mr. John Annis was called, who, being fworn, was examined as follows: (videlicet)

Q." In what Capacity do you ferve the East India "Company?"

A. "I am Auditor of the India Accounts."

Q." In that Character can you afcertain the annual " Amount of the ceded Lands antecedent to the Grant "of the Dewenna in 1765?"

A. Yes. The Collections of the ceded Lands, de"ducting the Charges of Collections, the Jaghire and "Commiffion, is £.658,875 net. The Profit upon the "Salt made in the ceded Lands, the Proportion of the "Amount is £.118,000."

Q." Is that the annual Amount now ?"

A. "This is the Collections of 1780 and 1781." Q." Does this make a Part of any of the Accounts "ftated, which have been delivered to the House?" A. "Yes."

Q. "Is this the Amount of the ceded Lands in Ben "gal that you fpoke to?"

A. "Yes."

Q. "Can you fpeak to the Value of the ceded Lands at Fort St. George and thereabouts?"

A. "Here is the Rental of Fort St. George, taken " from the Books of 1779-1780. The net Revenue is £.540,466."

66.

Q. "Can you fpeak to the Amount of the ceded "Land on the other Side of India, under the Bombay Prefidency?"

66

A. "Here is the Bombay Rentals, amounting, the "net Revenues, £.81,338."

Q. "Can you speak to the Amount of the Dewenna Revenues, obtained in 1765?"

A. "The Rental of the Dewenna of Bengal and Baba, the net Revenue of 1780 and 1781, is "£.1,743,372. The Profit of Salt manufactured on "the Dewenna Land is £.332,000.”

Q. "What was the whole Revenue of the Company "in Land before the Year 1765?" A. " £.1,398,679."

Q. "Now what is the Amount of the Dewenna?" A. £1,743,372, the Dewenna of Bengal and

66

"Baba."

Q. "Can you speak to the Sum expended in Ser"mon's Embaffy, in the Year 1717?”

A. "In examining the Company's Bengal Books for "that Purpose, I find the Expences of Sermon's Nego"ciations at the Mogul's Court began about April

1714; the whole Expences from that Time till "the Year 1718, when the Embaffy was completed, "£.78,234. This Sum remained a Balance on the Bengal Books till September 1774, when it was wrote "off to the Account of Territory, by Order of the "Court of Directors."

66

Q. Can you fpeak to the Sum expended by the

A. "The whole received by the Company from the "Revenues is £.3,622,969."

Q. "Down to what Time is this Account made up?" A. "From the Acquifition in 1765, down to March "1780."

Q. "I beg you will inform the Houfe, whether that "is the lateft Period to which the Account can be made " up?"

A. "So far as refpects the Receipt from the Reveઃઃ nues, I believe it is."

Q. "What then is the actual Advantage of the India "Company from their Trading Stock, upon Account of "their Territorial Poffeffions?"

A. "Three Millions Six Hundred and odd Thou"fand Pounds."

Q. "Inform the Houfe what is the annual Increase "of Cuftoms paid to the State for a Period of Fifteen "Years fubfequent to the Acquifition of the Territorial "Poffeffions, compared with the like Period previous to "that Acquifition?"

A." The Cuftoms paid in Fifteen Years to the First "of March 1766, amounted to L.14,940,659. The "Produce of the Cuftoms of Excife in the Fifteen "Years after the First of March 1766, from 1766 to the Firft of March 1781,amounted to .19,889,678." Q. What is the actual Excefs upon the Comparison "of these two Periods?"

A. ".160,000."

He was directed to withdraw.

Mr. Dallas My Lords, I will now call Mr. Ni"choll, to afcertain to your Lordships the Expence at "which thefe Territories were acquired."

Then Mr. Samuel Nicholl was called in, who being fworn, was examined as follows; (videlicet)

Q. "Pleafe to ftate to the Houfe what Character you "fill in the Eaft India Company's Service?"

A. "I am Accountant to the Eaft India Company." Q." State to the Houfe the Account of the Com"pany's Difbursements in various Wars carried on in "India, from the Year 1750 to the Year 1765, the "Period when the Dewenna was acquired ?"

A. "The average Amount of the Expences incurred "in the Fifteen Years, more than the Amount of the "Revenue, and taken from the Treafury in England, "and from the Profits of the Eastward Trade, come to .459,208. for each Year, equal, for the Fifteen "Years, .6,888,124."

Q." State what Deductions are to be made from

"that Sum?"

A. "The Excefs of the last Fifteen Years compared "with the former is £.4,949,019."

He was directed to withdraw.

Mr. Morton read the laft Treaty of Peace concluded between the Eaft India Company and the Mahrattas, concluded the 17th of May 1782. Ratified by the Pafhwab the 20th of December 1782, and finally completed the 24th of February 1783.

He was directed to withdraw.

Mr. Rous. I will now call Mr. Morton to prove the "laft Difpatches, which state the Evacuation of the Car"natic, to fatisfy the Houfe that all is Peace in India."

Mr. Morton read Paragraph 45 and 46 of a Letter from the Governor-General and Council at Fort William in Bengal, in the Secret Department, dated 5th April 1783, received by the Surprize the 20th September 1783.

Mr. Rous." The Letter we are now going to read "is to fhew, that from the Situation of Affairs, Hyder Ally directed his Son to make Peace with us."

"of the different Gentlemen who have filled the Chair of "the East India Company from the Year 1773, down to "the prefent Time, from the Time when the Regulating "A&t paffed, to prove that all Letters relative to War "and Peace, and the Management of the Territorial "Poffeffions; in fhort that every Thing relating to the Company's Affairs, has been regularly communicated "to His Majefty's Minifters for the Time being." Speaker." There is no Doubt of that.”

Mr. Dallas." The Head of Evidence with which "I fhall now trouble the Houfe, is to prove the Property of a perfonal Nature, which the East India "Compary are poffeffed of abroad and at home, in "order to fhew their actual Situation up to the latest "Periods to which thefe Accounts can be carried. And "I fhall trouble the Houfe with reading the various "Claufes of different Acts of Parliament, in confequence of which different Sums will appear to be paid "from time to time to Government by the East India "Company, for the Renewal of their Charters."

Speaker." The Witnefs gave an Account of all "the Sums the Company had paid to the Public."

Then Mr. Annis was called in again and examined as follows:

Q. "Pleafe to inform the House what Sum of Money " is due from the Public to the Company for the Subfiftence of French Prifoners in the War before the laft.?" A. ".260,687. 8s. 5d."

Q. "What is due from the Public to the Company "for the Expences on the Expedition to Manilla ?” L.139,877. 135.6d.”

A. "

Q. What is due to the Company from the Public "for Hofpital Expences on the Manilla Affair?" A. " £.21,448. 95."

Q. "Are the Sums you thus state as due allowed by "Government to be fo due to the Company?" A. "I don't know that."

Mr. Dallas." If any Doubt arifes with refpect to "the Expences on the Manilla Expedition, I fhall call a "Witnefs to give in Evidence the Letter from the Secretary at State to the East India Company, autho"rizing that Expedition, and pledging the Public to "reimburse the Expences of it.

σε

Q. "Does it confift with your Knowledge what is "the actual Amount of Cafh at prefent in the Compa"ny's Treafury."

A. Yes, the Amount is .609,954.

Q." Up to what Time is the Amount made out "from which you speak?"

A. "To the 19th of November 1783, in the Morning, "the Particulars of the Balance confit in thefe Ar"ticles, in Money .142,79. in Company's Bonds, paid in at the Sales which the Company will again "iffue, £.280,575."

Q. "Explain to the Houfe why you ftate the Article "of the Company's Bonds as Cafh ?"

A. "The Bonds paid in being received as Cafh, and "then iffue as Opportunity offers, are never confidered. 66 as Bonds difcharged or wrote off, nor could the Ac"count of them be otherwife kept without occafioning great Confufion and Inconveniency; they are con"fidered as Cafh till they are again re-iffued."

Mr. Dallas." I am now going to ftate to the Houfe "what is the Sum due to the East India Company for "Goods fold, but not delivered or paid for."

Q." What is the Sum of Money due for Goods fold, "but not delivered or paid for?”

A. "The Amount of Goods fold, not paid for, Dif"count deducted, is £.473,240. befides which there is "£.80,000. due from the Board of Ordnance for Salt "Petre delivered them, not paid for, making in the whole L.553,258."

Mr. Dallas." I would not trouble your Lordships "with going fpecifically through the Articles of this "Account, but it is neceffary for us to prove the ref

pective Articles by the various Officers with whom "they are; there is no general Signature."

Speaker." The Lords have all this in Print, figned"by the Officers."

Mr. Dallas." Has the Witnefs infpected this Account, and as far as concerns Matters in his Depart"ment, does he believe it to be a true and correct Ac"count."

A. "I have inspected it; they certainly are correct."

Q." Inform the Houfe, what is the estimated Value " of Goods at the prefent time in the East India Com"pany's Warehoufes unfold, of which all the Freights "and Duties are paid, or the Charges of which will be "afterwards ftated to the Houfe?"

A. "The

A. "The Amount upon the best Estimate that can be "made, is, Discount deducted, £.2,500,000.”

Q." What is the Value of Goods and Stores export"ed to India?"

A. "

L.1,219,091."

He was directed to withdraw.

Then Mr. James Bigger was called in, who being fworn, was examined as follows: (videlicet)

Q. "Inform the House what Employment you hold "in the Eaft India Company's Service?"

A. "I am a Clerk in the East India Company's "Treasury."

Q. "Do you know what the Amount of the Silver "at prefent is in the East India Company's Treafury?" A. Yes. There is Bullion to the amount of £.1090." Q. "What is the Amount of the Sum which the "Eaft India Company have advanced upon account of Freight to the Owners of the Ships now abroad, "which will be deducted from the Freight payable to "them when they arrive?" L.172,334."

A. "

He was directed to withdraw.

Mr. Nicholl was again called in, and examined as follows: (videlicet)

Q." Inform the House, as Accountant to the East "India Company, whether all the Articles of this Ac"count are truly and juftly ftated?"

A. "I verily believe they are; at the fame Time it "must be obferved, many of them are upon Eftimate." Q." From what Books do you take that Account?" A. "A great deal of it is from Estimates which are "taken from Vouchers in all the different, where the "Debts and Credits arife in the India House."

Q." From the feveral Books?"

A. "It cannot be always Books, becaufe part of it "is from Eftimation."

Q. "Are the Articles that are abfolutely extracted "from the Company's Books, truly and fairly stated?” A. "They are."

Q. Whether the Estimates contained in this Ac"count are, to the best of your Knowledge and Belief, juft and true Estimates?"

A. "They are to the best of my Knowledge and "Belief."

Q. Do they come from different Departments, or "only one?"

A." Whenever an Account of this Kind is made out, "the principal Officer of every Department is wrote to, "to fend the Account of all the Debts due to his De

"partment, and he receives an Answer to that Quef

"tion."

Speaker." You may authenticate that in the fame " Way."

Mr. Rous." It is a Continuation annexed to this "Account.-Does the Witnefs, as Accountant to the East "India Company, believe that Estimate to have been "made up correctly from the best Judgment that can "be formed from the Materials at the India Houfe ?" A. "I do verily believe it is."

Mr. Rous." That Account being established for "the Purpose of fhewing what will be the Relief re"quifite to the Company, I fhall now fhew what has "arifen from the European War."

Q. "Can you ftate to the Houfe, the Amount of Freight and Demurrage, exceeding the Peace-Freight "and Demurrage paid and payable?"

A. "There has been paid for Freight and Demurrage "between the Firft of March 1781, and the First of "March 1783, more than was paid on an Average of "of Six Years, from March 1774 to March 1780, "when the Average Sale was in all equal to the Sales "of 1781 and 1782, £.788,000. that has already been paid beyond the Price of Peace-Freight."

Q. "Inform the Houfe in the fame Manner, what is "the extraordinary Freight and Demurrage beyond the "Peace-Price that will become due ?"

A. "The extra Sum that may be paid for Freight "and Demurrage between the First of March 1783, "and the Firft of March 1784, occafioned by the War, "compared with an Average of the Peace above, is "L.380,000. Befides the above, there may become due "for extra Freight and Demurrage, after the First of "March 1784, occafioned by the War £.740,000.”

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Q. "Now can you ftate the prime Coft of the Cargoes that have been loft during the War?"

A. "The prime Coft of Cargoes loft Outward and "Homeward, occafioned by the War, is £.753,217." Q. "How many Ships were loft?"

A. "I don't exactly recollect, feveral Outward and "feveral Inward."

Q." Were they all captured?"

A. " They were either taken by the Enemy, or loft "by going in an irregular Mode to the Service of "the Country, going circuitous Voyages and not re"gular Voyages.'

Q. "Can you state the Proportion of thofe that were "captured by the Enemy." A." I cannot precisely."

Q." Can you state the Sum paid for the three Ships "that were presented to the Public?"

A. "The Sum paid for the three Ships that were "given to the Public was £.95,349."

« Cargoes expected in 1784 and 1785, and the Number Q."Have you any Knowledge of the Value of the " of Ships?"

A. "There are 55 Ships now abroad, 45 of which "are due in this prefent Year, and the Year 1784, for "which, by the Advices from India, Provifion is made for the Cargoes."

Q. "Provifion made for all of them?"
A.

"Yes, except from China, a Draught of " £.680,000."

Can you fpeak to the prime Coft of those

Q. "Cargoes?" A.

I believe near Four Million of Money." Q. "What is their Produce estimated at here, by a "Reference to former Sales?"

A. "Their Produce at a Sale will amount to Ten "Millions or thereabouts."

Q. "What are the Expences attending the Arrival "of those Ships?"

A. "I fhould conceive the Expences upon the former "Accounts of Freightage, Demurrage, and Customs, "will take nearly the Half."

Epus. Exon.

Epus. Lincoln.

A. "I can't tell."

Mr. Dallas-" My Lords I am now going to call "Evidence to prove the Exertions made by the Prefi"dent and Council during the War?"

Q." Inform the Houfe what Sums of Money and "what Supplies in Stores or of any other Nature, have "been fent to Bombay, from the Year 1775 to the Con"clufion of the Mahratta War, from the Presidency of "Bengal?"

A. Here is an Account authenticated by the proper "Officer, dated from the Accountant's Office."

The Witness read several Items, the total of which was £.3,744,967.

you

have now in your

Q. "What Account is that "Hand?" A. "An abstract Statement of the Supplies from "Bengal Government, to the Prefidency of Fort St. "George, from the 31ft of July 1780 to the 31st of "December 1782, amounting together to £.2,819,774.”

He was directed to withdraw.

Mr. Dallas-The Evidence I fhall now produce "will be to prove the late Improvements in the Revenue " in Bengal, &c."

Then Mr. Morton was again called in, and examined as follows; (videlicet)

2. "Have the East India Company received any "Advices ftating late Improvements in the Revenue "by the Increase of the Revenues, and the Decrease in "the Charges of collecting."

A. "There is a Minute of the Governor-General's "entered upon the Confultation of the 20th of December "1782. The Minute is dated the 12th." The Minute was read, and alfo Mr. Macpherfon's Minute in confequence of one from the Governor-General of the fame Date.

He was directed to withdraw.

Moved "to adjourn the further Confideration of this VOL. XXXVII.

Epus. Gloceftr. Epus. Meneven. Epus. Bristol.

Kefteven.
Dux Manchester.
Dux Chandos.

Dux Dorfet.
Dux Bridgewater.

Comes Hertford, Ca

merarius.

G

præfentes

Ds. Abergavenny.

Ds. Audley.

Ds. Percy.
Ds. de Ferrars.
Ds. Paget.
Ds. Ofborne.
Ds. Boyle.
Ds. Romney.
Ds. Cadogan.

Ds. King.