Q. Have you had Reason to believe that any Pri"foners charged in Execution for large Sums, have "chofen to continue in the Prison, setting their Creditors "at Defiance, notwithstanding they poffeffed the Means "of liquidating their Debts? 66 "A. I have heard of Inftances of that Sort but none "have come within my own Knowledge, fo as for me to "affert the Fact. I have heard of a Mr. Pope, who was "fome Time ago in the Fleet, who was faid to be worth "a Sum of Money, who ftaid there till the Time of his "Death. There is one Inftance now in the King's Bench "of a Gentleman who has been there a long Time; but, "I do not believe that he has the Means of paying his "Debt, that is Mr. Bowes. Q. Is there an Allowance from the Public for the "Support of Debtors in Execution? "A. There is none. ment in the Hope of an Infolvent Act, with the View of taking the Benefit of an Insolvent Act. There are "about Two hundred Prisoners now more than my ufual "Number, in confequence of it. "Q. Does that naturally prefent itself to your Mind, "as being the Confequence of the Expectations of thefe People? "A. Naturally fo. "Q. The Civil Debtor who is in Saint George's Fields, "and not in your Prifon, gives Security I fuppofe against "his Escape? "A. I take care of that, as I do it at my own Peril. "Q. Have all the Debtors that are out of Prison the "Means, and do they in Fact find Security to you for the Payment of their Debts, in case of Escape? 5 "A. Certainly, I take Security for that. "Q. Then about a Fourth of the Prisoners are within "the Rules? "A. There are. Q. So it is at your Peril if they absent themselves? "A. Yes, it is entirely at my Peril if they are out of "the Rules. "Q. Is not the Rent for Houses in the Rules pretty "confiderable? "A. I do not think the Rents are very confiderable. "I do not think there is any Difference between the "Rents of those Houses, and fuch Houses in other Parts "of the Town. "Q. Have you had Instances of Perfons having been "liberated by one Infolvent Act coming in again shortly "before another? "A. I believe there have been Inftances of that Sort, "but I cannot particularize them. "Q. Have you any Reason to know whether a Claufe "that has been introduced into fome late Infolvent Acts, "that the future Estate and Effects of the Debtor fhould "be made liable, has had any Effect? "A. I do not know that it has; that would not come "within my Knowledge. "Q. Among the Debtors in your Prifon are there "many Bankrupts who have been charged in Execution, "and who have not been able to get their Certificates? "A. Very few indeed. "Q. Can you upon Recollection ftate what Propor"tion the Number of Perlons who are in Prifon for "Debts, where the whole Debt for which they are charged does not exceed £100, bears to the Reft? "A. I cannot form a Judgment of that without exmy "amining the whole of Books. 66 "Q. Have you in your Poffeffion the Means of in" forming the Committee how many Perfons there are in your Prison arrested or in Execution for Debt, where "the original Debt was from Ten to Twenty Pounds? "A. I believe I have few in my Cuftody, from a ge"neral Recollection of my Books, charged with Debts, "the original Debt being under Twenty Pounds. "Q. When a Debtor is put into your Cuftody have you the Amount of the Debt for which he is put in? "A. Yes, I have. "The Witness is directed to withdraw. "It being then propofed to adjourn this Committee "Die Veneris, 17° Februarii 1809. "Order Q. Can you, from any fubfequent Return into the "Sheriff's Office, give the Committee a tolerably ac"curate Notion of the Proportion of the Actions fettled "in confequence of thofe Arrests? "A. I cannot fay what is the Proportion of the Ac"tions fettled in confequence of the Arreft, but I have "reason to know from the Returns into the Office, the Proportion of Actions that are not fettled upon Ar"refts; and upon an Examination, I do not believe that "the Number of Actions fettled upon the Arreft amounts "to One in Five. Q. Does it frequently happen that a Defendant is "difcharged for want of proceeding against him? "A. Yes, Writs of Superfedeas manifest that. Q. How long may a Defendant remain in Prison. "from the Time of his being first arrested to the Time "of Trial? "A. I fhould think Eleven or Twelve Months before "he can compel the Plaintiff to proceed to a Trial. "Q. Then if the Arreft has been malicious, and the "Plaintiff has wilfully withheld from proceeding, ftill "obferving ftrict Regularity, he may according to your "Anfwer, keep the Defendant in Prifon Eleven or "Twelve Months? Q. Is any Compenfation made to the Defendant for "that Lofs of Time? "A. That is a Queftion of Law; by the Courfe of "the Court certainly I am competent to fay none, be"cause the Law permitting it, he can have no Remedy. "Q. If upon the Trial the Debt fhould not be proved, "does the Defendant obtain Cofts from the Plaintiff? "A. Certainly, the taxed Cofts of a Nonfuit he "would be entitled to. "Q. Do thofe Cofts really balance the Expence of "the Defendant? "A. I fhould think not; it is generally understood "there are extra Cofts between Attorney and Client, "that the Officer of the Court does not allow. "Q. Are there Cafes in which the Defendant, though "the Debt has not been proved on Trial, is not enabled "to obtain immediate Liberation? "A. I am not prepared to answer that Queftion in "the Affirmative, becaufe if a Verdict fhould pafs for "a Defendant, if the Judge of that Court where the "Action iffues fhould be in Town, I am confident the "Judge, upon a proper Application to him would im"mediately order the Defendant to be difcharged. "Q. Have you had an Opportunity of knowing the "Cafe of Benjamin Pepe, improperly confined in the "Fleet Prifon? "A. Yes, it was within my Experience. Q. Was he fuppofed to be a wealthy Man, beyond "the Extent of the Debt for which he was confined? "A. Yes, very. "Q. Do you know what the Action for? "A. It was an Action for a malicious Prosecution at the Suit of Sir Alexander Leith. "Q. Do you know many Inftances of Perfons re"maining in Prifon, that were capable of difcharging "their Debts? "A. That does not fall within my Knowledge. "The Witness was directed to withdraw. "James Neild Efquire attending, is called in; and, having been fworn, is examined, as follows: 66 "Q. What is your Situation? "A. I am Treasurer to the Society for the Relief and Discharge of Perfons imprisoned for Small Debts, and "I am a Magiftrate; I was High Sheriff for Buckinghamfbire in 1804, and am a Magiftrate for Middlefex, "Kent, and Bucks. "Q. Have you been in the Habit for fome Years past "of vifiting the Prifons? "A. I have been in the Habit of vifiting Prifons from a very early Period of my Life, but particularly for "thefe Thirty-feven Years. I was one of the first few "who inftituted this Society, of which I am the Trea"furer, in 1772. In the Year 1773, Mr. Howard started, "and as he profeffedly intended to publish his Remarks, "I did not commit mine to Paper; my Reports were "confined weekly to the Society when they met in "Craven Street, and principally confined to the Prifons "of the Metropolis; and it was upon the accumulated "Mixture of Debtors with Felons that I made my Re 66 ports, in confequence of which the Society was firmly "eftablished in the Year 1774, and I was unanic mously elected the Treasurer. After our Regulations "became fyftemifed we met once a Fortnight, and lately, "for fome Years back, our Meetings have been quite "fufficient to be held once a Month; fo that we now meet the First Wednesday in every Month. "Q. Does 66 A. Yes, it has; and I think they are big with Evil. "I think they do not answer the Purpose which the Creditor means to effect by it; the Whole of the Money "feems to be abforbed in Law Expences; there is fcarcely, I believe, One Creditor in Ten, the Petition "from whofe Debtor comes before the Society, that he "receives One Shilling of Debt above Cofts. Where "the Debts are liquidated by the Society, the Plaintiff "remains out of Pocket, I fuppofe, in more than Nine "Cafes out of Ten. I can ftate a Cafe where a Debt "of Seven Shillings was increased by Law Expences to £9. 155. 11d. "Q. State that Cafe? "A. Mary Marfhland, aged Sixty-five, incapable of gaining a Livelihood; her Debt for Linen and Cotton "Goods Seven Shillings; Cofts £9. 15s. 11d.; in "Addition to which the Prifon Fees amounted to "1. 15s.; fhe was committed to Macclesfield Gaol "the 23d of December 1807, the Total Amount "£11. 175. 11d. The next Cafe is Margaret Afhton, "aged Fifty-fix, Widow, a Cotton Weaver; her Debt "was for Flour, Cheese, and Butter, 7s. 4d., Colts "£9. 155. 11d., Prifon Fees £2. 10s., committed to "Macclesfield Gaol 21ft of November 1807; the Total "£12. 135. 3d. The Third Cafe, Elizabeth Gofling, a Widow, aged Forty-eight, a Wafherwoman, had "Two Children, both under Fourteen Years of Age; "her Debt for Linen and Cotton Goods £1. 10s. 6d., "Costs £9. 35. 3d., Prifon Fees £1. 155.; Total "£12. 8s. 8d. cr "Q. How is the Defendant, imprisoned on Mesne "Process, fubfifted? "A. Where there is no Allowance to the Prisoners it "must be by Charity. "Q. Is the Creditor bound to contribute? "A. No. "Q. Is the Public bound to contribute? "A. I fhould think that the County was; but, in point of Fact, the County does not in feveral Inftances "I can adduce. "Q. How are the Felons fubfifted? "A. They are fubfifted by a very liberal Allowance "from Government and the feveral Counties. Convicts "under Sentence of Transportation have the King's "Allowance of Half a Crown a Week, and other Felons are very well fupplied and taken Care of, by the dif"ferent Counties to which the Prifons belong. "Q. Then as to the Imprifonment merely, the Felon "is better off than the Defendant committed on Mefne "Procefs? "A. By much, in feveral Prifons; your Lordships "cannot poffibly form an Idea of the Profligacy and li"centious Intercourfe between the Sexes, and want of "Morals, and Defiance of every Degree of Decency in "the King's Bench, the Fleet, and Marfbalfea, and in "fome other large Prisons. Q. Can you state any particular Fact coming within your own Knowledge, to support the General Affer"tion you have made as to the Proportion of Perfons "who are neceffarily liberated after long Confinement, "without having made any Compofition with their "Creditors? Q. Can you speak to the Expences of fuing out the Sixpences? "A. That varies extremely in different Places; and "in Wales, when the original Debt is Four Guineas, it very much exceeds it. "Q. In point of Lodging and Accommodation in "the Prison, is there any Difference made between a "Defendant on Mefne Procefs and a Prifoner charged " with Felony? "A. In general there is not; there is the fame Kind "of Cell for fmall Felonies as for Debtors. ' Q. Can you ftate any Inftances of Imprisonment "carried to great Length? 66 "A. I can, One for 40 Years, and .One for 19: "the Cafe for 40 Years was that of Simon Southward, "committed to Horsham Gaol, 22d of February 1767, " for a Debt of £15, and he was there at my Vifit in 1807; I have always seen him there, he is a very in"offensive Man, but evidently deranged; the Parish al"low him Six Shillings a Week: the other is Hugh "Robert Evans, committed the 8th March, 1785, to "the Gaol of Dolgelly for a Debt of £27. 5s. 6d. I "liberated him myfelf in February 1805, by a Payment " of £10. When I faw this Man in that Prifon in "Wales, where the Felons and Debtors all associate together, he was 80 Years of Age, and his Wife, who "was older than him, were both in the Prifon; they "were weaving Worited, at which they earned Threepence a Day each; the Parifh had formerly allowed "him One Shilling and Sixpence a Week; when I was "there they had increafed that Allowance to Two 66 Shillings a Week. I publifhed his Cafe, and Mrs. "Shiffner, and Mrs. T. Shiffner of Grofvener Place, gave "me the Money to compound his Debt. "The Witness is directed to withdraw. "Mr. Richard Graffwell attending, is called in; and, "A. Secretary to the Society for the Relief of "Debtors. "Q. Does that Situation give you an extenfive View "of the Effect of the Practice of Arreft and Imprisonment " for Civil Debt, especially in Cafes of Small Debt? "A. It does in fome Measure. "Q. Are the Number of Cafes that come under your "immediate Investigation annually confiderable? "A. About 800 upon an Average. "Q. Is the Investigation into these Cafes very "minute? "A. I think the Creditor feldom gets the Costs, at least "in Debts compounded by the Society. "Q. Are the Individuals who make Application to "the Society confidered as Perfons incapable of making "any Compofition with the Creditor out of their own "A. In anfwer to that I will read my Notes, extracted "from the Books of the Gaol at Lincoln, on ift of De-Means? "cember 1804: "Debtors committed to Lincoln Cafle "A. In general they are. "Q. The Conclufion then is, that in those Instances "the Hopes of the Creditor would have been defeated, "unlefs for the Interpofition of the Society? "A. Yes. "Q. Are the Compofitions paid to Creditors by "the Society in general fmall, in comparison to the "Debt? "A. Yes, the Plan of the Charity is not to exceed "to. to any one Prisoner. "Q. Is the Number of 800 that you stated, the Number of the Applications annually relieved, or of the "Perfons difcharged? "A. I beg Leave in Answer to this to give in a State"ment of the laft Year's Account, which I have taken "from the Society's Books. "Q. Can you give any Opinion as to the Propor"tion of Defendants on Mefne Procefs lodged in Prison "A. I cannot. Prisoners for fmall Sums are not "much in the Habit of coming either to the Fleet or to and they cannot get there without being removed by "the King's Bench, because those are Two extra Prisons, "Habeas Corpus, or having been arrested before, and "rendered in Discharge of their Bail. When they are "arrefted for fmali Sums of Money, my Opinion is, that 66 they generally go to the County Gaol, out of which "the Process iffues, believing that their Circumftances "may not enable them to remove to the King's Bench "or the Fleet, because the Process is expenfive? "Q. How long may a Defendant on Mefne Process "remain in Prifon, from the Time of his being arrested to the Time of Trial? "A. I think it is Four Terms. I think in the Fifth "Term they must charge him in Execution, and if they "do not go to Trial and Judgment within a Number of "Terms, I think it is Four, then he would become super fedeable; in like Manner would he in cafe they did not "charge him with Execution in the Fifth Term. If the "Writ is returnable in Michaelmas, they have no Bufi"nefs to declare till Hilary after Michaelmas, nor obliged "to fign final Judgment against him till Trinity following, "and charge him in Execution in Michaelmas following. "Q. During that Time has he any Allowance, either "from the Public or from his Creditor? "A. Till he is charged in Execution there is no Al"lowance in the Fieet except fome certain Donations "that go to the Paupers; that applies only to the Perfons "fworn on the Begging Grate; there are not perhaps, "more than Half a Dozen or Half a Score in that "Number. Q. If upon a Trial the Debt fhould not be proved, "does the Defendant obtain Cofts from the Plaintiff? "A. I am not competent to speak to that. "Q. Does it ever happen that the Plaintiff from a falfe "Speculation as to the Ability of the Debtor whom he "has charged in Execution to pay the Debt, is himself "lodged in the fame Prifon for the Cofts? "A. Yes, it fometimes happens that the Plaintiff and "the Defendant meet in one and the fame Prifon together; the one for the Debt, and the other for the "Cofts. "Q. Are there Caufes in which the Defendant, "though the Debt has not been proved on Trial, is not "enabled to obtain immediate Liberation? "A. Suppofing the, Debt not to be proved on Trial, "the Defendant muft go through a regular Procefs in "order to fuperfede that Action; he is not difcharged "without the Process of Superfedeas, unless a Judge "should make a peremptory Order at Chambers, the "Plaintiff having failed in his Suit; but that is not very common; the Superfedeas is the general Way. 66 Q. What is the ordinary Expence of the Superfedeas " in London? "A. I cannot fay exactly, but I fhould think about 455. though I speak at random. "Q. Have Inftances occurred within your Knowledge, "where Debtors have fraudently continued themselves "in Prifon? "A. Yes. "Q. What Q. To what do you ascribe that? A. When a Prifoner in Execution does not come "within the Meaning of what is generally termed the "Lords' A&t, the Plaintiff knows that the Defendant "cannot avail himself of any Step whatever to discharge "himself from Confinement, unless under an Act of In"folvency, and then, as he has nothing to pay, he may "be perhaps fo relentless as to keep him in Confinement, as he cannot help himself under any Statute. Some"times it happens that the Debtor himself will not fet "about to make any Terms with his Creditor. "Q. But I understood you to fay, that the Society "contract for this? "A. We do in all Cafes in or near Town, but in "diftant Counties the Attorney contracts for it in the "best Way he can with his Agent. The Society contract "with an Attorney, and in the Country, immediately "round London, where it can be done by our own Attor"ney, he does the Business for a Guinea and a Half, " and in Town we contract for £ 1. 8s. 6d. "The Witness produces a Variety of Attornies Bills, "for fuing out Sixpences under the Lords' Act, in the "Country, the higheft of which appears to be £6. 95. 4d. "and the lowest £2. 4s. 8d. "The Witnefs is directed to withdraw. "Mr. Nicholas Nixon attending, is called in, and further examined, as follows: "Q. Is there any Allowance of Fuel for Debtors in the "Fleet Prifon? "A. Not unless the Prison was upon a different "Construction; because, as it is now, they have free "Communication with each other; an open Area goes round the Building of the Prison, and the Mafters and "Common Side Prifoners in the Day-time mix indifcriminately together. Q. What is the average Number of Debtors confined "in the Fleet? 66 66 "A. We have in Cuftody at prefent about 380 within "the Prison, and in the Rules of the Prifon, which is more than we have in general. Whenever there is a Report of any Thing like an Act in favour of Pri"foners, the King's Bench and the Fleet Prifons fill "fafter; and we find, that after fuch a Circumstance is "done away, and there is no Likelihood of any Ac&, they difcharge themselves in larger Numbers. 66 "Q. How many Perfons can your Prison comfortably ❝ contain? "A. We can accommodate about, I fuppofe, 250 "within the Walls and the Rules. Q. How many can you accommodate within the "Prifon? 66 "A. Suppofing we put Two in a Room, we can accommodate, I think, upwards of 200. 66 Q. Have you a Hundred Rooms? "A. We have rather better than a Hundred Rooms, "but fome Part of those Rooms receive but One Pri"foner; they are not liable to Chummage; they are "on the Ground Floors, and are rather under Ground;, "and we therefore put but One in a Room on that "Account; they are too fmall. "Q. Is it the Custom for a wealthy Prifoner to purchase the Absence of those quartered on the fame "Room? 66 "A. Yes; but then by a Rule which I find it neceffary to lay down, the Sum of Money neceffary to be paid for fuch Purpose, that if the Chum of the Perfon "forbears to enter that Room, the Person for his For"bearance fhall pay him Four Shillings a Week, and Regulation neceffary, because when a Prifoner comes "into Cuftody first, he is generally supposed to have a "little more Money than those who have been confined "fome Time; and they have fuch avaricious Notions, "that they would make him pay even Two or "Three Guineas a Week for a furnished Room; and "therefore to check fuch Rapacity I made that Order. "The Prifoners fucceed to the Rooms in their own Right by Rotation; and if they can furnish the Room, "and a Gentleman comes into Confinement with a "little more Money than common in his Pocket, they "think him a fair Object to make an Advantage of. 3 C "Q. Does |