will allow me, of stating my views of the question before you on this occasion. I feel, indeed, the greater desire of so doing, because, when I enter my protest against the form of proceeding which has been adopted, I am compelled, at the same time, to protest against the measure itself which that proceeding is intended to carry into effect. I wish, likewise, to accompany this avowal with a statement of those points, with respect to which it appears, to my judgement, further privileges may be communicated to the catholics, without detriment or danger to the constitution. Looking back to the course that has been pursued, and the various modes that have been recommended for attaining the object which the advocates of the catholics contemplate, I am strongly impressed with the persuasion that this course will not be successful in the accomplishment of that object. Of the three plans which have been proposed, and in some measure detailed to the house, one has been abandoned; the second is not likely to succeed; and the third is notoriously impracticable. The first plan was a project of unlimited concession-a project for which there are, indeed, now to be found but few advocates within these walls, although the right honourable gentleman who is the author of the present measure was once loud in its support. That principle, however, the right honourable gentleman has abandon ed; it is disclaimed by a right honourable and learned gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) who distinguished himself on a former evening, and it may be, therefore, considered as rejected by every authority in this house. The second plan is that which professes to aim only at qualified concession, upon obtaining

such conditions as are necessary to the security of the establishments in church and state. The right honourable gentleman (Mr. Grattan) has never explained the details of those previous arrangements and regulations, nor did he adopt them as a part of his measure, until he found that they were essential to its reception. My right honourable friend (Mr. Canning) who in the last parliament submitted the question to the consideration of the house, took as his basis the neces sity of regulation and security. We know that this principle the catholics resist, they declare that they will submit to no state inspection, or to any control over their own church. The third plan of a noble viscount, which depends on the possibility of gaining the concurrence of the catholics to every condition which can be prescribed with a view to the security of the church of England, is still less calculated to prove practically effica cious. Thus, then, all the plans yet devised or suggested are deficient, or inadequate to the end which they propose. In a committee, however, upon the present state of the question, I must embrace the opportu nity it affords me, of objecting altogether to the form and character of the measure to which we are now required to assent. We are desired to acquiesce in a sweeping repeal of all the statutes and provisions which have been made for the safety of the protestant establishment; without previous assurance or condition, to surrender entire all the guards established by our ancestors, to yield advantages which are certain and immediate, and to rely on defences which are subsequent and contingent. We are required to give free access to the privy council, to the judicial bench,

to

to open the doors of parliament, to abolish the test act, which the prince of Orange insisted on retaining when he ascended the English throne. I must confess I am not one of those who consider old checks as inapplicable to new dan gers, or who think that those safeguards erected by our forefathers, for the purpose of excluding a pretender to the crown, cannot be use ful in protecting us either against a disturber at home, or the machinations of the subverter of empires abroad. After all that has been urged with respect to the oath taken by the catholics, I cannot lay out of my consideration that the oath has been taken by very few without qualifications and reservations, and that an ecclesiastical admonition had been promulgated, instructing those to whom the oath had been administered, that they ought not to hold it too extensively obligatory upon their consciences and conduct. The regulations which have for their object more immediately the interests and security of the protestant church,-an object which none, I am happy to say, are indifferent to, who have taken part in this discussion,-it seems to me, would with more propriety become the first and preliminary measure, instead of being left as a matter of subsequent arrangement. I am of opinion that it would have been more natural to begin with this material feature of the ques tion, rather than postpone it till a period, when, from the probable operation of other causes, all hope of final and successful adjustment will have vanished for ever. But I cannot close my eyes to another consequence of the right honourable gentleman's proceeding. The effect of producing the bill, and suffering it to lie over till the next

session, will be, I fear, to raise high expectations among the catholics, and to spread dissatisfaction and alarm through the church of En gland. There is a principle which has been powerfully pressed, to which I cannot assent, because I regard it as a false and mischievou principle of policy; it is, that you ought to give power to those who are hostilely disposed towards you, in order to abate their hostility. But do I therefore infer that matters ought to remain just as they now stand? Certainly not; never have I entertained or expressed such a sentiment. The views, however, in which I have indulged are, I trust, strict, definite, and guarded. They are, I believe, congenial to the character of the people of this country, who, although slow and cautious, are ready to listen to every measure of improvement, however averse from wholesale projects and indefinite innovation. I am far from being an enemy to concession, I think there are many things that may be safely and wisely conceded. I would in particular give, and with a liberal hand, the honours and distinctions of the military profession. All ranks in the army should, in my judgement, be laid open to merit and ambition, without any reference to religious opinions. I would willingly repeal the words in the act of 1793, which exclude catholics from becoming generals of the staff. When I except the very highest military offices, (and I allude now to the situa tion of commander in chief in England, Scotland, and Ireland,) it is only because to these situations there necessarily belongs a great degree of military power. I would open all the avenues likewise to the distinction of the bar, because I would have the catholies run the

race

race of honour, although I cannot acknowledge the expediency of put ting power into their hands. These are concessions which the country at large would cheerfully yield, and which are sanctioned, as I conceive, by principles of the soundest policy. Much too may yet be done on the score of toleration: the catholic soldier should not be excluded by military regulations from the exercise of his own religious worship, nor the English catholic be compelled to attend protestant churches, or suffer penalties for performing mass. These are, however, evidently rather illustrations of the view I entertain upon the subject of qualified concession, than detailed statements of all the points to which that view is applicable. But there is one other most import ant consideration to which I feel it my duty to refer, and to state my opinion explicitly-it is the question which relates to the regulation of the catholic hierarchy in Ireland. To me, that foreign influence and foreign intercourse which have been supposed by many, and admitted by my noble friend (lord Castlereagh), to be essential to any future arrangement, are causes of very serious apprehension. The head of that hierarchy is now in the hands of our mortal foe, and Bonaparte has lately evinced his sense of the important advantages derivable from papal influence. Do we not know that that influence has obtruded foreigners into catholic bishoprics in Ireland, and that general Humbert found, on his landing, the brother of a French general in possession of an Irish see? Surely it is then incumbent on the catholics to offer the same securities, and submit to the same control, which have been exacted and

exercised by every other protestant state that has admitted catholics to the enjoyment of equal privileges. If they will not make the offer, or yield the same securities, the fault is their own, no blame can attach to parliament; and the statute of Elizabeth, modified and rendered applicable to the present time and to existing circumstances, should be enforced. When I refuse political power to the catholics, it is because I cannot reconcile it to the security of the protestant establishment. The catholics continue to maintain the spiritual supremacy of the pope; and although history will inform us that this doctrine is not an essential principle of catholicism, yet, where it is so considered, the necessity which it imposes on states to guard against its exercise, has been always obvious and undisputed. I may quote on this head the language of no less an authority than lord Clarendon, who, after a long and unwearied investigation of this sub. ject, pronounced the result of his inquiries and reflections to be, that any allegiance paid to another power, spiritual or temporal, is taking from that which is due to the state; and that to assert the lat ter not to be diminished is perfectly illusory, and little better than a species of legerdemain. I would address the catholics in the words

of the inhabitants of the north of Ireland-If you cannot give up what you call your faith, neither can we surrender our constitution." The committee must, however, take cognisance of the prayer of the petitions on the table. That prayer appears to me to have been too imperiously urged, and to have been expressed in language too lofty for the occasion. If England should comply with that prayer

without

without qualification or reserve, she will be England no longer. Should all religious distinctions be laid prostrate, our political preeminence will not long survive. Such, however, must be the effect attending the chimerical project of what is called universal religious liberty, if it is to be pursued at the expense of civil expediency, and to the manifest peril of all our establishments. I am sorry to have occupied so much of the attention of the house; but I was anxious to state on what grounds I could not give my assent to a measure of so general and sweeping a nature, and so subversive in its tendency of the firmest bulwarks that surround the constitution."

A long debate now ensued, in which Mr. Ponsonby and many others took a part.

We shall only notice the speech of Mr. Wilberforce, who said that the circumstance which weighed with him in the vote he should give was, that the elective franchise had already been conceded to the catholics, and it would be absurd and injurious, after having granted such privileges, to deny them seats in the two houses. It had been objected, that the catholics might form mischievous or treasonable connections with foreign powers. But the connection existed now: and while concessions would not increase the connection with a foreign power, it would render the influence of that power less effective. The mischiefs to be apprehended from catholics being admitted into that house he could not perceive; for what measure which they might wish to accomplish, might they not attain through their protestant representatives, who were so much less ex

posed to jealousy and suspicion? The oath which these catholics would take, whether it bound their consciences or no, must yet impose some restraint on them as gentlemen; for who, after swearing not to "disturb and endanger" the es tablishment, would have the hardihood to propose any measure which might palpably tend to its detriment? The petitioners against the catholics, though actuated, he was convinced, by the most laudable motives, were deceived in their ideas of the subject, and did not seem aware that the catholics possessed at present all the power which could be exerted to the detriment of the establishment; and the house would encourage that delusion, if they spread the idea that they might. remain with safety where they now were. It was very easy to tell the catholics to be contented with the concessions which had been made to them; but he could not conceive any thing more galling to a body of men who were brought, as the catholics had been, into contact with political objects, to be thus excluded from the enjoyment of them. Thinking thus that it was politic to make concessions to the catholics, as that body would be thereby conciliated, while the establishment would be rendered more secure, he thought it peculiarly desirable to grant it at the present moment. The catholics were now advancing (as an honourable gentleman had on a former occasion so justly urged) in wealth and con sequence; and if concessions were not made at this moment, they might be made at a less desirable period. We were now suffering for the follies and vices of our forefathers. Ireland had been treated as a conquered country, and the

remain

remaining links of her ancient chains pressed more severely on her, because she had been admitted to a part of the blessings of the British constitution. The more catholic Ireland abounded in men who could take a part in political life, the more irritating would exclusion become; and not only increasing wealth, but advancing knowledge, would cause them to feel most acutely the state of degradation in which it was attempt ed to keep them. The system of excluding catholics from parliament, was contrary to all the principles which had been laid down on both sides in the discussions on parliamentary reform, that no great body should be without its representatives in parliament. The refusal of the barons to agree to any innovation in the constitution, had been alluded to as an example to modern parliament. But Nolumus leges Anglia mutari, was uttered by men in the full enjoyment of all the privileges of the constitution, to secure to themselves their rights, not to exclude those who were debarred from those privileges from participating in them. The honourable gentleman proceeded to remark, that a circumstance in favour of the claims of the catholics was, that the influence of the priests on the higher orders of that body had diminished. There was an annual excommunication issued against all protestants; but not with standing this fulmination, a catholic nobleman (lord Petre) had raised a body of volunteers to defend this excommunicated country. When objections were made to this corps being headed by his son, with a truly British spirit he said, that nothing could absolve him from his duty of defending his country, and that his son should serve in the

Majority 67

Some other discussions took place: but still the subject was advancing in its progress, till the 24th of May, when the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the catholic relief bill having been read, the bill, on the motion of Mr. Grattan, was ordered to be recommitted, and the speaker having left the chair, Mr. Abercrombie was called to the chair of the committee.

The speaker rose and said, that with the views he had taken on the subject of the bill before the committee, it was quite impossible that he should give his consent to it: and he had therefore taken the first opportunity of stating the grounds on which he thought that the bill would defeat the ostensible objects of those who had brought it forward, and by what reasons he was influenced in being adverse to the admission of Roman catholics to political power in a protestant state. As to the bill, together with the clauses which had been incorporated with it, it would be proper to consider it on those principles of policy on which the foundation of our constitution rests. It was now acknowledged that it was on the ground of civil expediency, and not of abstract right, that government existed, and that on this ground only was to be justified any control which was exercised over the free agency of mankind. On this ground it had been determined that power should be vested in those alone who professed the religion of the state:

but