into law, adequate permanent provision THE EARL OF CARNARVON admitted would be made by the guardians in the that, in many instances, the Act of last year metropolis for the accommodation of the had worked satisfactorily, though he was houseless poor. With respect to the ade surprised to hear the noble Earl state that quacy of the accommodation provided under there was an unanimous feeling among the the Act of last year, he was able to make Boards of Guardians of the metropolis in a satisfactory statement. Before the pass- its favour. He could not himself concur ing of that Act there was accommodation in the eulogy which the noble Earl (Earl in the metropolitan unions for 997 casual de Grey) had passed on that Act. From poor, and that was very unequally distri- inquiries he had made he had come to the buted, and of a very unsatisfactory condi- conclusion that the Act had undoubtedly tion. But at the present moment there produced satisfactory results in certain was suitable provision for 1,578 persons; parishes where the guardians were willing but upon one night in the month of January to meet it in a liberal spirit; but in other last, when the largest number of applica- parishes, he was sorry to say, it had been tions was made at the unions, 620 casual met in a spirit so illiberal and churlish as poor were received into the union wards, to have proved almost ineffectual. He did while, at the same time, 955 persons of a not state this as a mere matter of assersimilar description were accommodated in tion, but the Returns which had been the refuges which existed in various parts ordered by the other House and which had of the metropolis. Thus, on the night been laid on their Lordships' table, proved when the largest number of persons reon their face that the Act of last year quired accommodation, only 1,575 applied had not been so complete a success as the for it, being somewhat less than the num- noble Earl would have their Lordships ber which could have been accommodated suppose. The very first thing observable in the union wards, independently of the in looking at the Returns was the inrefuges. He thought that their Lordships equality which prevailed in the different would agree with him in considering that unions. It extended to every part of the was a satisfactory result to be obtained in administration, and affected the accommoa few months under the operation of the dation given, the treatment of the persons temporary Act. He would not trouble admitted, and the labour exacted from their Lordships by reading the many letters them. Every pauper was entitled to rewhich he had since received stating the view ceive one meal on admission and another taken by the Boards of Guardians of the on discharge. The food varied from nine Act, but he would state generally that the ounces of bread down to four, three, and Act was approved by them, and they were in one case actually 2 ounces of bread. now willing to do that which they were never This was an enormous disproportion in the willing to do before-namely, to provide fare, which must make the Act work badly. permanently proper accommodation for the The bread was in some nnions supple casual poor. There was almost universal mented by a pint of gruel in the morning; testimony on their part in favour of the in other cases gruel was given both at operation of the Act. There was one or morning and evening; and in one case the two clauses in the present Bill which effected exuberant prodigality of the generosity of improvements on the Act of last year, to the guardians found vent in permission to one of which only he would refer on the the pauper to drink as much water as he present occasion. The claase in question pleased in addition to the bread which was provided that the police should have the given him. The labour required in return power to take persons coming under the for food and shelter varied just as much. description of casual poor to the wards of In some cases it took the form of cornthe workhouses, who were then to be imme- grinding, in others of pumping water or diately admitted. This provision was re- turning a crank, and in others a regulation commended by the Committee of last year, prevailed which would probably excite their and he believed that it might be carried Lordships' surprise, and which so far as into operation with great advantage. Sir he knew was to be found in no county Richard Mayne thought that it could be gaoloakum picking was reserved for worked without difficulty in the metropolis, the aged and the infirm, for women and and therefore it had been thought desirable children. Not only did the character of to give this additional security to persons the labour differ, but the quantity exacted in the unfortunate situation of the casual and the time during which they were kept poor. at their tasks, which varied from one hour

Earl de Grey

up to four, and the quantity to be picked | tage of the Act of last year; and when from one pound to three. Again, the ac- the police agency contained in this Bill commodation in the different unions varied was put into execution there was less greatly. In some cases the wards had not chance of this still. He could not agree been fitted up for the purpose of accom- with the noble Earl that the Act of last modating the casual poor; in others the year had been so successful as he had deventilation was defective, and the paupers scribed; but he did not oppose the Bill, had not more than seventy or eighty cubic being merely anxious that the Poor Law feet of air each during the whole night; Board should direct their attention to the in one instance, it appeared that two beds subject, and as far as possible prevent the in the male wards were occupied by three Act from being made practically a dead persons. It was a perfect farce to say, letter, as it very often was, by the illiberal under these circumstances, that this was and churlish parsimony of Boards of Guaraffording proper shelter to the poor, or dians. that the Act was working satisfactorily. In one case, that of St. George's-in-theEast, every adult was required to pick two pounds of oakum for every meal he or she might have. It was impossible, consistently with the Act of last year, to require these conditions. In another instance, the guardians assigned as a reason for refusing relief, that the applicants belonged to other metropolitan parishes; but that was no good reason why the guardians should not take in these persons and give them shelter. If Boards of Guardians acted upon such grounds as these the Act was entirely nullified and set aside, and there was no security that the relief which ought to be granted had been so granted. The consequence of this unequal treatment of the casual poor in the different unions was that some of the wards were too full, while others, in other unions, were comparatively empty. One ward was described in the Returns as never used, and the reason was obvious, for in proportion as the guardians acted in a harsh and illiberal spirit the poor would be driven away and the wards would remain empty. He quite admitted that there was a difficulty in the first application of the Act-too much liberality would be an evil, as too much strictness was, and it was not easy to fix the point where the guardians could give enough and not too much. It would be obviously wrong to give more to one of these casual poor than to the pauper within the walls of the workhouse, or to an honest man, who by his own industry was struggling to maintain himself out side the walls of the workhouse. The class of casual poor, moreover, was no doubt a difficult one to deal with-often idle and dissolute, and from the lowest dregs of society. At the same time, it must be borne in mind that the casual poor were not a criminal class. As a matter of fact, very few criminals, if any, took advan

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY admitted that there might be defects in the administration, but where the law was effectively administered it worked very great good. He had been favoured with some statistics showing what had been done under the Act in one of the largest parishes in London. From the 29th of September, 1864, to the 25th of March, 1865, 4,740 persons had been relieved in this way, at a cost of £244, showing an average cost of 2d. a head, for which each person received in the evening and morning six ounces of bread and a pint of gruel. About 50 per cent of the persons admitted stated that they had not been in London more than three days. Only thirty-seven had been refused admission; of whom twenty men and eight women would not take the bath, which was always warm; two men found the beds too hard; and seven had more than a shilling in their possession. The conduct of the great majority of the "casuals"-for this was the new word that was passing into the English language-was reported to be good. Cases of insubordination had been rare; and it had not been necessary to take any of them before the magistrate for riotous or disorderly behaviour. This was a good picture of the results of the law. In some cases the Act might be administered with severity; but it must be remembered that there was a considerable difference in the population in different parts of London, and that it might be necessary to change the treatment according to kind of poor with whom you had to deal. After the discussion which had taken place, however, the law would probably be more efficiently administered, and he believed it would be a real and permanent blessing to the class it was intended to relieve.

House in Committee; an Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

OXFORD UNIVERSITY (VINERIAN
FOUNDATION) BILL-(No. 79.)

SECOND READING.

whether they could modify it without
the assistance of Parliament, because the
statute formerly passed was in conformity
with the precise terms of the will of the
founder. It was to enable them to make
the necessary alterations that this Bill
was introduced.
was introduced. The proposed modifica
tion had been sanctioned by the Hebdo-
madal Council, and had been unanimously
approved by the Council of Convocation.
The Bill had been introduced into the
other House by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, as one of the Members for
the University, and the Attorney General,
its counsel, and had passed without oppo-
sition. He trusted it would be received
equally without objection by their Lord-
ships. He begged to move the second
reading of the Bill.

committed to a Committee of the Whole
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a, and
House on Friday next.

MASTERS IN THE ROYAL NAVY.

QUESTION.

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it was intended to abolish the rank of Masters in the Royal Navy?

THE EARL OF DERBY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, to which he did not anticipate any opposition, said, its object was to enable the University of Oxford to pass a statute amending a statute which had been already passed in pursuance of the will of Charles Viner. The Vinerian foundation arose from the will of Charles Viner, who died in 1755, and who bequeathed the whole of his very valuable library and a bequest worth £12,000 to the University. If all who had been at the University were actuated by the same conscientious motives as Sir Charles Viner that seat of learning would be enriched indeed; for Mr. Viner stated that his bequest was given to the Chancellor, Masters and Scholars of the University in order to make some amends for my indiscretion there in infancy." The testator then proceeded to specify his objects, one of which was for nominating, appointing, and establishing a Professorship of Common Law at the University and putting it upon a proper footing, in order that young gentlemen who might be students there might be instructed and enabled to pursue their studies to the best advantage when attending the courts at Westminster, and might not trifle away their time by hearing what they under-degree the interests of the class of masters, stood nothing of, and thereby divert their who numbered from 700 to 800 persons. minds from the study of the law to their Their interests would be very carefully own prejudice. For the purpose of effect- secured. The only step taken by the Admi ing this very laudable object it was pro- ralty at present was that they had stopped posed that out of a portion of the residue the entry of that class of cadets from of the funds provision should be made whom the masters were taken. The most for publishing a Supplement to his own convenient course for putting the House Abridgment of the Law, and also appoint-in possession of the intentions of the Ading, as far as the funds would allow, one or more fellowships and scholarships. The Abridgment to which he referred consisted of twenty-four large volumes, and the Supplement had been published, he believed, in the small compass of six additional volumes. The University desired to act in accordance with the directions of the founder in every respect; but in order to carry them out in his evident intention they desired to appoint a resident Professor. In order to do so, however, it was necessary that the original statute of 1758 should be modified accordingly. But upon proposing to make those alterations they were informed by the present Attorney General that it was doubtful

THE DUKE OF SOMERSET said, it was the intention of the Admiralty to do so; but the mode in which it should be done would be so as to effect in the least possible

miralty would be to lay the proposed scheme on the table as soon as possible, and that wonld give the noble Earl an opportunity of bringing the question before the House.

it

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, that in all probability when that time came would be too late to do anything, or to change in any way the intentions of the Admiralty. It was well known that the Admiralty had power to make such changes in the navy, either of themselves or by Orders in Council; there was no need that the subject should come before Parliament, and therefore the only way to call attention to it was by Question. The step contemplated appeared to him one of the

most extraordinary that had ever been hereafter discharged the duties of master taken in the details of the service. The had the rank of lieutenant they would masters were most ancient and important necessarily expect to rise to that of captain officers. In olden times, before the navy and admiral. Under these circumstances was fashioned as it was now, those officers the proposal of the Admiralty seemed to were the masters of merchant ships and of him to be a great mistake. They were the ships belonging to the Cinque Ports, going to abolish the rank of master, of which the King took up, and on board of second master, and assistant master; but which he placed his troops, for the purpose they must have qualified officers to fill of defending the country or attacking the their places. Those officers would naturenemy's ships or shores. He had seen a list ally desire to assume all the authority of of the time of Henry V., in which were the executive, while their minds would be shown the names of the masters who were distracted by the charge of stores, the thus taken into the King's service. Theirs, management of the rigging, and the other therefore, was a very ancient office-as duties which now fell to the lot of the ancient as that of the captains of ships. master. If they effected this change the In process of time, however, the navy Admiralty would have two descriptions of was placed under the system which now lieutenants, brought up in two branches existed, the masters became subsidiary to of the service; and when a lieutenant had the captains, but they still discharged all shown himself to be a good navigator, he the duties which belonged to their office would be much sought after by captains. in ancient days; they navigated the ship, If the Government obliterated this grade looked to its rigging and storage, and were of the service it would be the desire of responsible to the Government for the every officer filling the duties of master to stores placed on board. They were, more- rise to the rank of admiral. The master, over, the ship's pilots. They were edu- at present, had very important duties to cated as pilots of ships in all the narrow perform. As the law and practice is now, waters on the coasts of the United King- he might rise to be master of the fleet, dom and in the German Ocean. It took and with rank of Staff Commander. There a life to become a perfect pilot on these were other advantages which followed from extensive coasts, and in all the inlets and the great knowledge he gained in the public harbours contained within the compass of duties of the service. In the proposed the shores of Great Britain and Ireland. scheme, of which their Lordships knew He deplored extremely the resolution nothing at present, he presumed it was which had been taken to abolish the intended to place the masters on the lieuoffice; and then, after all, its abolition tenants' list. If so, the already unfortumust be compensated by the substitution nate list of 1,000 lieutenants would be of some other, for assuredly the navi- inundated by the addition of more than gation of our ships must be carried on 250 masters-some said 700. What would, by men whose whole mind was devoted then, be the lieutenant's prospect of prosolely to that important branch of the ser- motion? At present he rose very slowly vice. It was perfectly true that all the in the service. He presumed the masofficers of a ship were brought up as na-ters would not be placed at the bottom vigators; but it was constant practice which made the master so superior to the lieutenant, because the lieutenant's executive duties, with which the master had nothing to do, would not admit of his giving up his mind to the observation of the chronometer and the heavenly bodies. Therefore, in abolishing the master's office they must find some other man to put in his place; and they must either select lieutenants who were to be taught the duties, to the injury of the duties they at present discharged, or else they must create a second class of lieutenants. He doubted whether the duties of master were compatible with the executive duties of lieutenants. Moreover, if the officer who

VOL. CLXXIX. [THIRD SERIES.]

of the lieutenants' list but would be inserted in it according to their rank in the service. Perhaps the noble Duke intended that the masters should die out; and that would be the wisest plan, giving them nominal rank and pay, and then cutting off the supply, and thus by degrees bringing the lieutenants into play to perform the duties of master. On the whole, however, he looked upon the proposed change as a very serious matter, and he did not see what the country would gain by it. He thought it to be his duty to bring the matter before the House, although on the present occasion he did not expect their Lordships to give any decided expression of their opinions.

THE DUKE OF SOMERSET said, that [ tion of the county was ready to combine before the proposed scheme was carried with a view to contest legislation in the into effect it would be laid upon the table, spirit in which the noble Lord proposed to and their Lordships would have further time deal with the subject. He thought he to consider it. He agreed with the noble might venture to say that under such cirEarl that the question was one of great cumstances legislation would be impracti importance. There had been considerable cable, and he appealed to the noble Lord dissatisfaction among the masters, who at least to postpone the Bill until Her Mawish to rise in rank. While, however, jesty's Government had had an opportunity they remained a class apart there was great of considering these Resolutions. difficulty. On the other hand, all young lieutenants were instructed, and many were highly skilled in navigation; and it had been thought by many officers of great judgment that you might have a set of lieutenants for navigation, as they had lieutenants who devoted themselves to gunnery, and that such a change would be most satisfactory to the service. The proposed mode of dealing with the first and second masters would be seen when he laid the papers on the table; and there was no intention of carrying the change into effect until Parliament had had ample opportunity of considering the subject. Whatever was done, it was important that it should give satisfaction to the service, and that it should be generally regarded as an improvement.

REPORT UPON MINES.

LORD KINNAIRD, who had on the paper a notice to move that the Resolutions and Recommendations of members of the Commission appointed to inquire into the condition of Mines in Great Britain, to which the provisions of the Act of 23 & 24 Vict. c. 151, did not apply, be laid on the table in a form separate from the Report, said that, as he understood Her Majesty's Government objected to the Resolutions being granted, he did not wish to press his Motion, and it might be convenient to their Lordships if he were to state upon what grounds he did not wish to press it. He would take that opportunity of saying with reference to what was reported to have taken place in the other House on the previous evening-namely, that the Home Secretary had stated that the Bill did not embrace these Resolutions, that he (Lord Kinnaird) had received a letter from the right hon. Baronet, in which he stated that he had been misunderstood, and that he certainly did not make that statement.

LORD VIVIAN said, he could assure the noble Lord that the county in which he (Lord Vivian) resided were strongly opposed to the Bill, and almost every porThe Earl of Hardwicke

LORD KINNAIRD said, he could not agree with the noble Lord, who, he felt assured, must be misinformed. He (Lord Kinnaird) had received letters from persons in that district, who told him that all right-thinking agents and shareholders were in favour of legislation; and he expected soon to receive a deputation, with a view of introducing some Amendments into the measure. In the meantime he would say that his Bill had been even more favourably received than he had expected, and therefore he could not accede to the proposition for postponement.

EARL GRANVILLE said, it was not convenient to discuss the provisions of the Bill at that time. Had the noble Lord not withdrawn his Motion he certainly should have supported the proposal of the noble Lord (Lord Vivian), to enable the Government to have further time for considering the subject.

House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.