conduct judicial inquiries such as that now the majority, he was glad to see his own under discussion should attend regularly, opinion upon the subject ratified by the and, as far as possible, from hour to hour, House. MR. W. O. STANLEY said, he was sorry to hear the remarks which the noble Lord had made with reference to the Members of the Committee. and he himself was not absent for five LORD ROBERT CECIL said, he beminutes from this Committee. The Com-lieved it would be more satisfactory if a mittee did not refuse to hear Mitchell, or Committee of five were named by the to allow him every opportunity of defending Committee of Selection for the purpose of himself. It had been stated that a great deciding upon this case. After the exdeal of the evidence was not submitted to pression of opinion which some of the the person who ultimately fell under the Members of the Committee had made in reprobation of the Committee, but it should that House he was afraid that but little be remembered that all the earlier pro-weight would attach to their votes upon ceedings of the inquiry were in the dark. the subject. The whole Committee was unanimous about one thing—namely, that forged signatures were attached to certain forms which had been furnished to Mitchell. The evidence of their own eyes was enough to satisfy them that frauds had been committed by several persons, and that Mitchell was one of those who had been concerned in them, and that evidence was confirmed by the testimony of the most distinguished expert who was commonly examined with reference to signatures. He did not think that the hon. Member for the King's County was as good a judge of the evidence as were other Members of the Committee who attended regularly from day to day, and who thus became acquainted with the manner Ordered, That the Report on the Comand conduct both of all the witnesses and mittee on Azeem Jah (Signatures to Peof the accused. Mitchell had himself beentitions) be re-committed to the said Comemployed as a messenger in the Petitions mittee.-(Mr. Attorney General.) LORD ROBERT CECIL said, he had no intention of casting any imputation upon the Members of the Committee. He had referred particularly to the two hon. Gentlemen who had spoken at length on adverse sides of the question. MR. HENNESSY said, he must state to the House that he should respectfully decline again to serve on the Committee. Amendment, and Motion, by leave, withdrawn. mittee. Office, where it was his duty to inform his Petition of George Morris Mitchell [presuperiors of any signatures which appeared sented 8th May] referred to the Comto be forged, and he was therefore well aware that it was contrary to the rules of the House that any name should be signed RAILWAYS-(GUARDS AND PASSENGERS to a petition by any one except the person to whom it belonged. The evidence before the House fully justified the finding of the Committee, and therefore there was no necessity for them to inquire into any other of the nineteen petitions. MR. ARTHUR MILLS said, he hoped the discussion would not be longer continued, as he did not see what good end could be obtained by such a course. He trusted that the matter would be speedily disposed of, and that the House would not again be troubled with it. MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS said, he had no desire to prolong the debate, but he did hope that the House would show every possible indulgence to the Committee in order to enable them to come to a satisfactory conclusion upon the subject. MR. COX said, that as one of the Committee who dissented from the opinion of Mr. Bonham-Carter COMMUNICATION.)-RESOLUTION. SIR WILLIAM GALLWEY, in rising to move a Resolution upon the subject of the communication between guards and passengers on railways, said, he had to complain of the inconvenience which the business of private Members suffered from the introduction at such an hour of debates like the one with which the House has just been engaged. The question was whether this communication was possible or not. He wished to ascertain from the Government whether it was practicable or not to establish direct or indirect communication between passengers and the drivers of trains. Although the Motion which he had placed upon the paper might notconsidering the science and mechanical skill in the country-settle the matter with which it dealt once for all, it would at all events tend to its settlement for some time to come. His Motion was sufficiently in- used upon the former occasion, when the nocent to disarm all opposition, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milner subject was one which any Member might Gibson) told the House that a Royal Combring before the House with a fair chance mission was about to be appointed which of success. Nor was the subject entirely would consider this subject, and therefore unknown to the House, for he recollected it would be better to wait for their Report that some years ago it came under their before arriving at any decision on the notice under rather curious circumstances, matter. He had known many cases in of a somewhat sensational character, Two which three years had elapsed between the hon. Members travelling by railway to appointment of a Royal Commission and town, to discharge their Parliamentary the date of its reporting. Surely the right duties, saw the roof of their carriage blown hon. Gentleman would not have the preaway and felt the floor crumbling beneath sumption to ask the public to wait for that their feet. The question then was dis- period before he attempted to apply a cussed in the House, and he remembered simple remedy. He had found that the the galaxy of railway luminaries who com- Order of Reference had been forwarded to peted among themselves as to who should the Chambers of Commerce, but not to an first rise and should most protest in favour agricultural society, though agriculture was of a remedy being supplied. Those Gen- as much interested in the question as trade. tlemen then declared that they were The right hon. Gentleman well knew that searching throughout Europe for the pro- Ministers often did not pay the slightest per invention, and that when they had attention to the Reports of Royal Comfound it the public should have the benefit missions. He knew a striking instance of of it without any limitation as to expense. that, in which a Commission had reported He put it to the House whether the railway in favour of a particular harbour of refuge authorities had ever fulfilled that pledge. in Yorkshire, yet the Government had If they had not done so during the long completely neglected their recommendation. interval that had elapsed since the former Certainly the word "safety" was incidentdiscussion, he thought it would be agreed ally mentioned in the Order of Reference that it was time for Parliament to take of the Commission, but that was all. No the subject into its own hands if it desired doubt the representatives of the railway that anything should be done to prevent a interest would have some objection to make recurrence of accidents, which too often to his Motion. It would be said that this occurred. As far as his own observation was an interference with railway manage. went he could state that no direct commu- ment, and a division of the responsibility nication existed at present between pas- which ought to rest entirely on the shoul But the law sengers and the persons in charge of the ders of railway managers. engine, and there was no means of com- had interfered to regulate the number of munication between the passengers and passengers that should be carried in stage the guard. He was told that in some coaches; it had also interfered with carcases a communication was attempted to riers' carts and the like; but that interbe established between the guard and the ference had never been held to derogate driver of a train by a cord connected with from the responsibility of their managers. a bell on the engine, but that was not a He was convinced that if his Motion were certain mode of communication, and even carried it would be the commencement of if it were there was little that was new in a new era in railway legislation for the it, as a guard had always been able to safety of the public. Events which had attract the attention of the driver by ap-happened recently on our railways, and plying the break. As to communication between the passengers and engine driver, he had seen no attempt to establish it, but upon the great Western line he had seen some solid sentry boxes-of such a strength as might have been directed by the Ironplate Committee--which were of no use, because they were always untenanted, the company not liking to pay the wages of the look-out men who should occupy them. He had no doubt he should be met with similar arguments to those which were which might happen again at any moment, "That it is the opinion of this House that the safety of the public requires that, pending the Report of the Royal Commission, some immediate provision should be made for compelling railway companies to make arrangements for establishing a proper communication between guards and passengers." MR. LEFROY seconded the Motion. degree of safety from attack. There was another very great objection to those footboards-namely, the number of deaths which they caused among railway servants. In Belgium, where perhaps they were more used than in any other country, no year passed without some deaths arising from their use. It was but natural, therefore, to conclude tha tif with our more extensive railway system, and more rapid rate of travelling those footboards were attached to our railway carriages, the proportion of deaths would be much larger than it was in Belgium. Railway companies could not The MR. THOMPSON said, that the hon. Baronet had not made any suggestion as to the manner in which his object was to be carried out. He had been discreet enough not to suggest any remedy to the House, although he asserted that a remedy was easy. It certainly would be a very re-expect nor ask their servants to discharge markable piece of legislation to inflict pains and penalties upon persons for not doing nobody knew what. However, he would assume that all that the hon. Baronet intended to do was to give expression to a feeling which prevailed extensively out of doors-that the railway companies were doing nothing to remedy an evil universally recognized. He thought, however, that he would be able to show that they had not been neglectful of their duty. A few months ago the Railway Clearing House appointed a Committee, composed of some of the ablest railway managers in the country. The Committee publicly invited tenders of inventions for effecting a communication between railway passengers and engine drivers, and the result was, that 196 inventions were laid before the Committee, and more than half the inventors attended in person to explain their plans. In the Report drawn up by the Committee, attention was directed to what had been done by a former Committee which had inquired into the subject in 1852 and 1853. He might observe that so good were the conclusions arrived at by that former Committee considered to be, that a Railway Commission appointed in France, in consequence of the murder of a Judge in a railway train, had reported that they were sound, and adopted them as the basis of its own recommendations to the Government. That Commission was composed of Members of the Government and the Legislature and eminent engineers, but had on it no gentleman connected with railways. It found that, in all probability, the Judge had owed his death to the footboards, which enabled a person to walk from one end of a train to the other, and thus facilitate the escape of the murderer, and consequently the Commission arrived at the conclusion that a connection by footboards was not one which afforded to passengers any great Mr. Lefroy such a dangerous duty as passing along mitted to the Committee, and which had dents, aud cases of alarm that had been selected for this especial purpose. He could assure the House that to give passengers the power of communicating with the guard was by no means a simple matter. There would be no use in giving it if the guard was not required to attend to the summons; and in that case a nerVous passenger might stop a train in a place where there were no signals, and where a stoppage would be attended with the greatest danger to the whole of the passengers. He trusted that after what he had said with respect to the proceeedings of the railway companies the hon. Baronet would withdraw the Motion. MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE said, he did not think they could agree to such a Resolution as that proposed, when the hon. Gentleman had not suggested what would be a proper communication between guard and passengers. The hon. Gentleman had been rather severe on the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade for the unfeeling way in which he had spoken of the number of lives lost on railways. But he believed that there was a very exaggerated idea in the public mind as to the loss of life on railways. Only the other day he had seen an account of the loss of life in the streets of London during the last year, and it actually exceeded the whole number of lives lost by accidents on the whole of the railways in the kingdom. Last year when Mr. Briggs was unfortunately murdered, he had brought the question before the House. He had received many letters containing suggestions on this subject, but he found that there was only one mode of communication that was satisfactory, and that such a mode was not possible in this country because there was not sufficient space for the guards to pass. The loss of life to guards from the footboard system was very great on the Continent. He would urge upon the hon. Gentleman, therefore, that that was not the proper time for proposing such a Motion as the present, and that he ought to be prepared to point out the proper mode of communication between passengers and guards. occurred; but he differed from the statement that the number was small. His hon. Friend's argument with respect to the protection which was given to travellers by coaches was not intended as a recommendation that similar precautions should be adopted, in the same mode, on railways, which would be absurd; but he only quoted those precautions to show that the safety of the public was guarded in those days, and his hon. Friend used the illustration as an argument in favour of adopting some efficient precautions for preventing accidents in railway travelling. He (Mr. Lefroy) had had some connection with railways, and he had ever felt that a great deal more ought to be done in this direction than had been as yet attempted. The railway companies ought to show more deference to the feelings of the public by contriving some means of communication in cases of danger or illness. He quite agreed with the hon. Member opposite, that the plan of placing a man in a box would not succeed, because his vigilance would probably become relaxed as he got used to it. With respect to the point which had been raised, that trains might be stopped without sufficient cause, he admitted that might be the case, and that therefore the plan of simply making a communication between the passengers and guard would not be sufficient, but he must say that he was in favour of some such plan as existed abroad, and had urged his hon. Friend to bring that before the House. present there was a footboard running along the train, which might possibly be made useful by widening it so that the guards might reach the passengers in case of alarm. The Government appeared to be rather indifferent about the matter, but he hoped the railway companies would take the question up in all seriousness, and with a determination to find a remedy for the existing evil, in which case there would be no necessity for any compulsory steps being adopted, the reverting to which he should very much deplore. At MR. MILNER GIBSON said, he was MR. LEFROY said, that the public sure the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Wilowed his hon. Friend (Sir William Gall-liam Gallwey) did not wish to insinuate wey) a debt of gratitude for the part he that he was indifferent to the dangers to had taken in this matter. There had, which passengers were exposed in the cases according to his own knowledge, been to which he had referred, where they exgreat complaints as to the neglect which pected every moment to be killed without had been shown. He was not prepared having the power to arrest the attention to state the number of dreadful acci- of the company's servants. VOL. CLXXIX. [THIRD SERIES.] D Не вутра had read the Report and the reasoning which had led to this conclusion, and he thought it sound. The French Government went into this question very fully, and judged it unadvisable there should be a system of communication between passengers and guards, being of opinion that the evils it would give rise to would be greater than those which were sought to be averted. Although the managers here were prepared to give passengers a limited means of communicating with the guard, they could not enable a passenger to stop the train wherever he liked, because that would be to imperil the life of every other passenger in the train-for one that was following might dash into it and smash it to atoms; neither could they allow the guard to go to the passenger, on account of the great risk of the loss of his life in doing so when a train was travelling rapidly. He thought, however, the plan they proposed would tend very much to meet the evil complained of, and he trusted thized very much with the unfortunate | passenger, but to stop the train at the position of those passengers; and so far next station or point at which the train from the Board of Trade being indifferent would be protected by fixed signal. He to the whole question, as suggested by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lefroy), it having been repeatedly brought before them-not perhaps so much by large deputations but by railway travellers-and had received their best attention. The subject also had been discussed two or three times in the House, having been brought under its attention by the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck). It was, of course, the duty of the Board to have regard to public feeling, which existed in the country, on the question, and to bring the subject under the attention of the railway companies. Accordingly, on the 7th of July in the last year a letter was addressed by the Board to every railway company in the kingdom, calling attention to the complaints which had been made, and asking them to take into consideration the adoption of some means to meet the evils complained of, and to make some attempt to allay the sense of insecurity evidently felt by the travelling public. In consequence of that circular the subject was referred to the Railway Clearing the Motion would not be pressed to a House, which was, in fact, a conference division. If his hon. Friend had sought of railway managers, representing pretty to deal with the question by means of a nearly all the railway companies of the Bill he would have found it more difficult kingdom, and the general railway interests. than he imagined, because it was one thing They selected a sub-committee, composed to frame a Resolution affirming the desirof the most competent managers, to con- ability of doing a particular thing and ansider this question. That sub-committee other to frame the clauses of a Bill in such had made a Report, which had been subse- a manner as would carry out the object; quently confirmed, and had met with the and if the hon. Baronet tried to frame concurrence of the railway managers gene- clauses to carry out a measure in accordrally, so that there was some reason to ance with his Resolution he would soon find believe that they were about to adopt how difficult it would be to frame them in indeed, he might almost say they had such a manner as to carry his point withundertaken bona fide to carry into ex- out inflicting other and perhaps worse ecution, if practicable some plan which evils. He did not mean to say that there would enable passengers to communi- was any insuperable mechanical difficulty cate with guards. They had not pledged in securing communication between pasthemselves to any particular plan, be- sengers, guards, and drivers, and when cause they said in their Report, with once the principles to be carried out were great justice, that before any plan could determined upon there would be very little be generally adopted it was absolutely delay in acceding to the wishes of the necessary that the apparatus, whatever public. The question, however, was not it might be, should be tested on some in a state to require immediate penal and of the principal railways, before its value compulsory legislation. The railway comcould be ascertained and decided upon. That was the position of the case at present. The extent of the remedy proposed by the railway companies was that passengers should be able to arrest the attention of the guards in express or ordinary trains travelling long distances without stopping at intermediate stations. The guard was not to be able to go to the Mr. Milner Gibson panies, stimulated by the letter from the Board of Trade, had taken the matter in hand, and as soon as they had ascertained by experiment which plan was the best they would adopt it. MR. BENTINCK said, that while giving the right hon. Gentleman credit for his sympathy with unfortunate passengers imprisoned in a railway carriage |