Unfortunately the £50,000 a year was be managed. They were about to cast only sufficient for the maintenance of an another tax upon the ratepayers of the efficient fire brigade, and insufficient to metropolis, and to relieve the wealthy and make fire-escapes part of the system. How- enterprizing body of the insurance comever, the rateable value of property in the panies at the expense of the public. Now, metropolis would of course increase, and some doubts might arise as to whether possibly the number of insurances would there ought not to be some provision inincrease in consequence of recent legisla- troduced into the Bill to make those comtion, and, therefore, it might be in the panies contribute to some extent to the power of the Metropolitan Board of Works, maintenance of that which they themselves in a few years time, to take fire-escapes had hitherto maintained at their own speunder their charge. This being so, power cial cost. The Metropolitan Board of was given by Bill to the Metropolitan Board Works were not a body sufficiently long in of Works to purchase or take, in such form existence to be intrusted with the manageas they might agree with the Royal So- ment of this brigade. Nothing analogous ciety, their plant and staff of fire-escapes. to such a body had the charge of putting He proposed, also, to insert a proviso to out the fires in any foreign metropolis, but enable parishes-as he believed it was the the Government themselves attended to the wish of many of them to do so to con- matter. The Board of Works acted as a tinue their contributions in aid of the Royal sort of independent and not very businessSociety for the Protection of Life from like body, which professed to manage its Fire. It would be necessary to add cer- affairs in a manner not known to any Detain words at the end of Clause 30 to en- partment in the State, and, perhaps, the able this to be done. He felt that the result of the transfer to them of these new object of the Bill was one of very consider duties would necessitate a series of deable importance. The property in the jeuners and dinners. Sewers such as they metropolis was estimated at £900,000,000, had constructed were no doubt great works, and there were over 1,400 fires in the year, well worthy of admiration, but whether it or about four every day. This showed the was desirable or necessary to provide breakimportance of establishing a proper and fast for 800 persons at £1 58. or £1 10s. efficient brigade. There were as many a head on the occasion of the opening of fires in the metropolis as in Paris, St. those works-an expense which must evenPetersburgh, Vienna, Berlin, New York, and tually be levied on the ratepayers-he felt Philadelphia, put together, and they had in- himself unable to determine. Such a course creased from 438 in the year 1833 to 1,400 of conduct made many wish that the Board last year. Although, therefore, the existing should become more a part of the local fire brigade had given the greatest possible system before fresh powers were placed satisfaction to the public, although it had in its hands. been commanded by one so highly respected as Mr. Braidwood, and was at present under the orders of Captain Shaw an officer who had fully upheld its high position, and whose services he hoped and understood would be continued under the new system -being yet a force which was maintained exclusively by the insurance companies, and might at any moment be dissolved by them, it was of the utmost importance to establish a fire brigade of a permanent character. He hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the Bill. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. T. G. Baring.) SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE said, though he approved of the scope of the Bill which had been very clearly stated by the hon. Member, he had doubts upon the manner in which the brigade was to VOL. CLXXIX. [THIRD SERIES.] MR. AYRTON said, he had to express his satisfaction at the introduction of the Bill. He regretted to find that any person in that House should suggest as a defect in the measure the proposal that the administration of that which was purely a local matter should be confided to those who had been specially charged by Parliament with the conduct of the local affairs of the metropolis. He thought that the reasons assigned by the Under Secretary were conclusive against any attempt to place the administration of the fire establishment in the hands of the police. Formerly, every parish was supposed to provide machinery for extinguishing fires within its own area, but, practically, the parishes were the very worst authorities to whom this duty could be intrusted. The jurisdiction, therefore, had been replaced by another as completely as steam fireengines replaced the hand-pumps of former 2 E times. The re-constitution of the system for putting out fires in the metropolis was a consequence of the re-construction of the body who managed metropolitan affairs. But as they were about to embark on a more efficient and extensive fire brigade, they ought to consider how the great expense was to be raised. The expense was estimated at £50,000 a year, but it must be more than that if the brigade was to be efficient. It was said that there were £900,000,000 of consumable property in the metropolis, but that was an extravagant estimate, and half the amount would probably be nearer the truth. The exact sum insured at £35 per £1,000,000 would not produce more than £10,000 a year, so that they were going to relieve the insurance companies of a sum of £15,000 a year. If the charge were simply put upon the capital insured, the property creating great risk would only be charged at the same rate as that which created no risk at all. The proper mode of computation was by a percentage on the premium paid, and then every person would pay according to the risk he occasioned. But then it was said that by adopting such a principle the provident man alone paid, while the improvident man escaped. He entirely subscribed to this objection. If they wanted to raise a fund by taxing combustible property, it ought to be imposed equally and alike on that which was and that which was not insured. In this point of view the measure was at variance with the views accepted by the House in the last Budget, and which had now become part of their fiscal system. The Under Secretary for the Home Office (Mr. T. G. Baring) objected to a scheme of payment which would include both insured and uninsured property, because he said if a fire broke out in the house of a man who was not insured he would conceal it instead of raising the alarm. It was difficult to say what a man would do under such circumstances, but the House ought to consider what was just to all classes of the community, and if a man were fool enough to let his house burn down rather than communicate with the nearest fire brigade station he ought to be allowed to do as he pleased. Manchester, which had an admirable brigade, had set a wise example, and one which ought to be followed. When a fire took place in that city the person in whose premises it occurred was compelled to pay a considerable sum as a contribution towards the fire brigade, whether he was insured Mr. Ayrton or not. Instead of the Bill having in it a clause imposing a penalty of £1 whenever a chimney was on fire, there should be a well-considered scale of payment to be made in case of fire by the owner or occupier of the property, not as a penalty, but as a sum that he might be legitimately called upon to pay for the assistance he received from the fire brigade. If the rule prevailed in the metropolis the contributions would be repaid by the person in whose premises the fire occurred out of the money paid by the insurance company. [An hon. MEMBER: How can he pay it if his house is burnt down?] He did not know. How could the man rebuild his house? The very fact that he would be called upon to pay a contribution to the fire brigade would induce a man to insure. If 1,400 fires took place every year, a sum of £8,000 or £10,000 might be raised in this way without oppressiveness to any one. He hoped it would be understood that the Parliamentary Vote would not be withdrawn. In making an arrangement of that kind some distinct guarantee ought to be given that this payment was to continue, or otherwise some gentleman from the country might one day raise an objection, the Vote might be dropped, and the metropolis might be left without the money. As to the rate, it must be borne as inevitable, although it was not of the most just character, because it was only on the house and not upon the goods contained in it, so that the valuable goods in a warehouse would pay nothing, although the building was the least feature of the risk, and that for which the fire engines were of the least possible use. That was a difficulty which the House would have to meet sooner or later; but there were besides that several of the details which must be carefully considered when the Bill was in Committee. MR. BLACKBURN said, he did not agree with the idea of relieving those who had no fires at the expense of those who had the misfortune so to suffer. He objected strongly to the proposed payment by the Government of £10,000 a year, as it was a local question, and ought to be met by a local fate. In all these matters relating to the metropolis there appeared to be a vital error. It was thought that because it was the metropolis it ought to have support from the public revenues; but there was not a city in the realm that would not be happy to give something to have the Government establishments there. The Government proposed to contribute What the House one-fifth of the expenses of the new bri- | entirely contravened. gade, but the value of the Government had most to complain of was the delay buildings in the metropolis was not nearly which had taken place. The Committee a fifth of the value of all the buildings in reported in 1862-it was not till 1865 the metropolis. Therefore the Govern- that the Government had introduced their ment, at the expense of the country gene- scheme, and no adequate reason for the rally, would contribute by far too largely delay had been assigned. to the support of the brigade. Let the Government property pay this rate like all other buildings in the metropolis, but do nothing more. MR. VANCE said, that as a Member of the Select Committee that sat on the subject of the Fire Brigade, he wished to observe that he did not complain of the scheme which the Government had proposed, though he thought it strange that they should have entirely contravened the Report of the Committee. The Committee unanimously recommended that the brigade should be placed under the control of the police authorities; but though there were two Members of the Government on the Committee, they put no questions, nor examined any witnesses with a view to show that it was desirable that the brigade should be put under the direction of the Metropolitan Board of Works. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had alluded to the excellent way in which affairs were managed in Manchester. In Liverpool, also, matters were managed well, and there the fire brigade which worked efficiently was in the hands of the police. He did not complain of the Vote of £10,000 from the public funds; but he would remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that in the city which he represented (Dublin) there was a very efficient fire brigade, and there were several important public build. ings, and a small contribution would be useful. It had transpired during the investigation of the Committee that it was in the mercantile portion of London that the greater number of fires took place, and it was there that the most numerous stations of the brigade were established. In other parts of the metropolis occupied by the residences of private gentlemen the stations were sparse. It was proved before the Committee that there was no adequate protection for life and property in many parts, such as Belgravia and Tyburnia, and he trusted the Government would give more stations in those districts. He did not oppose the Bill, but must repeat that he thought it strange that upon such slight reasons as those stated by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) the Report of the Committee in nearly every point should be MR. REMINGTÖN MILLS said, that the insurance offices were to make over all the plant, stock, and engine-honses of the fire brigade, as at present constituted, to the new brigade, without any compensation, and that was a very handsome contribution on their part. It would still be their duty, at their own expense, to protect salvage. He approved placing the brigade under the management of the Board of Works, which would have greater facility in collecting the rate. The police ought to be confined to their proper duties-namely, the protection of life and property, and not be obliged to look after fires. MR. ALDERMAN ROSE said, the origin of the present Bill was, that the insurance companies had given notice that they would not continue their establishments and staff, and, therefore, the question of what was to be done became imperative. He had had occasion to consider the question very much. He entirely disapproved the employment of the police, and he was not prepared to say that this was not the best scheme that had been proposed; but he was afraid that the control of the Metropolitan Board of Works would not prove satisfactory. That Board consisted only of forty members, and they had undertaken works of the most gigantic character, and been intrusted with the most unlimited powers of taxation. He felt that, looking at the experimental nature of the works they were carrying on, looking at the fact that they already taxed the metropolitan districts to the extent of £6,000,000 a year, and that a good many people believed these experimental works would prove a total failure, they ought not to be intrusted with further taxing powers, being still a comparatively untried body. At all events, the Government ought to look to the constitution of the Board and see whether their number was sufficient for the work. If the forty members of the Board were cut up into several committees, it might be found that they would not be capable of discharging their new duties. He objected to any penalty being imposed upon people who had the calamity of their property being destroyed by fire. MR. LOCKE said, that no doubt, ere he made some such proposition in the Committee, and it was only lost by the casting vote of the Chairman; but with regard to the second point, he adhered to the unanimous opinion of the Committee and the witnesses, which was in favour of placing the brigade under the police, as in Manchester and Liverpool, where the system had worked well, and not under the Board of Works, which had not the general confidence of the public. long, the number of the Metropolitan | authority of the Board of Works. With Board would be increased and a more regard to the former point he offered no direct mode of election adopted. He objection to the Government proposal, as should like to ask the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Vance), who wanted a contribution towards the fire brigade of that city, whether the amount raised by licences for public-houses and other similar taxes was not paid into the coffers of the municipality, which thus had a large sum at its command for fire brigades and other municipal purposes. Nothing of that kind was received by the City of London, where the expenses were very great for lighting, watching, paving, and such things, for the benefit of those gentlemen who came from Dublin or the country to enjoy themselves. It was, therefore, absolutely necessary, either that the Government should provide a fire brigade for its own safety or contribute towards one established in the metropolis. He did not think that the sum of £10,000 was at all too much, when they considered the vast amount of property in the metropolis belonging to the country. He thought the same principle should apply to Dublin, Edinburgh, and any town in which there was a large amount of Government property. He did not think that persons who had the misfortune to have their houses burnt ought to be called upon to contribute largely to the support of the brigade, but it might be advisable to levy a small tax upon them. The Committee, of which he was a Member, found it very difficult to arrive at a definite conclusion on this subject; but the Government had now produced a plan which, he believed, would give general satisfaction to the House. MR. VANCE said, that he had been informed that in Dublin the money for licences to public-houses did not go to the municipal corporation funds. When the question arose in Dublin he was in favour of placing the brigade under the police instead of the municipal Board. MR. PEACOCKE said, the proposition of the Government varied from the Report of the Committee in two respects-as regarded a contribution to the support of the brigade from persons whose houses had been on fire, and as regarded placing the brigade under the Metropolitan Board of Works, instead of the police. The Committee were unanimous in their recommendation that the brigade should be under the control of the police; and the same unanimity pervaded the witnesses, who all rejected the idea of subjecting it to the Mr. Locke MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS said, he was a member of the Committee, and had always opposed the scheme for placing the brigade in the hands of the Commissioners of Police. There was another matter which took the present Bill entirely away from the arrangements suggested by the Committee. It had been assumed by the Committee that it would not be consistent for them to assume any arrangements with the insurance companies; but if the brigade were placed in the hands of the Metropolitan Board of Works they would be able to make the insurance offices, as well as the Government, parties to this measure. In his judgment the proposed scheme would work remarkably well. At present the insurance offices had their chief stations in the heart of London, where most property was accumulated, and one advantage of the Government plan would be that the stations would be more fairly distributed through the metropolis. He believed that the Bill was an excellent one, and that its principle was sound, though its details might perhaps be improved in Committee. He might observe, that under the Fire Act every parish was bound to provide the means of extinguishing fires, but the Committee ascertained that many of the engines belonging to parishes were no larger than garden engines. MR. ALDERMAN ROSE: And all of them out of order. MR. THOMSON HANKEY, as Chairman of the Committee which had inquired into this subject, said, that though he was of a different opinion, he now thought that the Metropolitan Board of Works would be likely to carry out this arrangement most efficiently. One reason was that the police in London were divided into the Metropolitan and City forces, and the conflicting interests which thus existed would effect the proper working of the force. The scheme was really the same as that existing in Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to. Bill read 2o, and committed for Thursday next. Manchester, where the corporation under- again, the old system, the expense of intook the whole arrangement, just as here vestigation into the title, and difficulties the Board of Works managed the affairs in dealing with the property in the market, of the metropolis. It was most important accompanied by gain to the solicitors and that the Government property in the me- loss to the public. When Lord Derby was tropolis should be protected, and it was not last in office the hon. and learned Member unreasonable that there should be a con- for Belfast (Sir Hugh Cairns), whose entire tribution from the public funds for the pur- cordial, and unqualified approbation the pose. As to the insurance offices, they present measure had, introduced into that were not relieved altogether; and besides, House a Bill to give effect in England to they had offered to give up the whole of the recommendations of the Commission their plant. But what Parliament had to of 1857. That particular measure was do was to see that there was an efficient not carried into effect, but in 1862 Acts fire brigade without reference to the in- were passed by Parliament for the purpose surance offices. The Metropolitan Board of simplifying the transfer of land in Engof Works were here similar to the bodies land, of enabling a Parliamentary title to which managed the fire brigades in the be acquired by means of the Registration great provincial cities, and even on the Office then established, and of perpetuating Continent. As to the suggestion to make it by keeping a subsequent record of all a permanent provision for the brigade, he after transactions. The scheme was not would remind the hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) compulsory, but permissive, and there was that no permanent provision is made for a drawback, which the good sense of the the police or the army. country was overcoming, against its efficient operation, arising out of the indisposition of solicitors and attorneys throughout the country to co-operate in carrying out a change of law which interfered with an important branch of business they had been in the babit of conducting with great ability, and with some profit. Under these circumstances prophecies were indulged in that the scheme would have no effect, and that nobody would take advantage of it. Consequently, it was not all at once that the public began to discover that they really had the means of acquiring clear titles to their estates, and of keeping their titles in a marketable condition; but now the public were becoming acquainted with the benefits of the measure, for whereas from October, 1862, to March, 1864, there were only sixty-five applications for registration, comprising about 5,000 acres of land; from March, 1864, to April, 1865, there had been 214 applications; and it might be concluded that that rate of increase would be progressive. At rather an earlier period the same system was tried in South Australia, and here he must not omit to mention the name of Mr. Torrens, on account of the zeal and ability with which he had promoted the cause of public improvement on this subject. That Gentleman was the means of introducing the system into South Australia, where great advantages had resulted from it. He held in his hand a Return of the number of applications made to the Land Registry Office in Australia, showing that not only was there a large number of RECORD OF TITLE (IRELAND) BILL. (Lords.)—[BILL 151.]-SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the second reading of this Bill. He said it had passed through the House of Lords with very general unanimity, receiving the support particularly of noble Lords connected with Ireland. Its object was to complete the benefits derived in Ireland from the system of Parliamentary titles provided by the legislation of late years. Under the Incumbered Estates Act property to an enormous value-not less than £23,000,000-had been cleared and sent into the market with an unimpeachable Parliamentary title. Since the passing of that Act the Legislature had given to the Landed Estates Court in Ireland power to make a declaration of title, which should be a clear Parliamentary title, to any owner of land in fee simple, and the beneficial effects of that legislation could hardly be overrated. That legislation was, however, imperfect, since there was no provision, as pointed out by the Commission of 1857, for perpetuating and continuing as to future transactions the Parliamentary title once created, and for preventing the land from relapsing into its original condition of encumbrance. Thus would arise, |