which the Government had arrived on the matter of the French Creek and the Marsa after the fullest consideration. The plan finally determined upon had been concurred in by all the professional opinion, naval and engineering, which could be got at Malta; and the result arrived at was such a solution of a difficult question as was highly creditable to those who proposed it. MR. LAIRD thought that after the ample discussion which the subject of the Malta Dock had undergone in that House, it was not desirable that the battle should be fought over again; and he trusted the Committee would not interfere with the course now proposed to be taken by the Government in that matter. Vote agreed to.

CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

CLASS II. SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.

(2.) £24.148, to complete the sum for Office of Works and Public Buildings.

MR. BLACKBURN complained that he and other hon. Members had been taken by surprise. He was not aware they were going into another class of Estimates at that time of night.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, notice was distinctly given that the Civil Service Estimates would be taken.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH thought the proceeding was somewhat unfair. The First Commissioner of Works was absent when these Estimates were last before the House.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the real question was, whether the House was disposed to go on with business?

MR. COWPER said, he owed an apology to the Committee for not being present on the former occasion; but he could not understand why his presence now should be a reason for not going on with the Vote.

MR. BLACKBURN asked for some explanation of the Vote, the aggregate amount of which for the mere inspection of public buildings, parks, &c., seemed to be excessive. There were no less than forty clerks in the Department, costing £11,500 a year.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH asked, whether Mr. Pennethorne, who received £1,500 yearly as the salaried architect and surveyor of the Board, received a further sum of £800 in another capacity. He also wished to know whether it was Mr. Childers

MR. COWPER said, that Mr. Pennethorne received a salary of £1,500 a year for his services as Surveyor, and as adviser of the Office on architectural questions. The arrangement under which the services of Mr. Pennethorne were secured to the public was economical; the professional fees for the work performed by that gentleman would have amounted & in some years to a larger sum than his salary. The extensive purchases of land on the site of the new Foreign Office and of the land between Bridge Street and New Palace Yard, had been had also devolved a great deal of busiconducted by that gentleman, upon whom ness connected with Battersea Park and

other metropolitan improvements. It was necessary that there should be some professional man permanently connected with the department to whom application could be made for advice, and Mr. Pennethorne was a very able man, of great experience. The hon. Member for Stirlingshire (Mr. Blackburn) had spoken of the largeness of the total payments; but in reality the office was undermanned, and the persons employed had more business devolved upon them than they ought to have if they were more numerous. What was required of the surveyor of works, was not too highly paid by the £1,000 a year given to him as salary.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK asked, whether Mr. Pennethorne was paid extra as architect for the Record Office. [Mr. COWPER: Yes.] He then wished to know whether, if the Government nominated Mr. Pennethorne as architect for the new Law Courts, he would have extra pay for furnishing plans for them.

MR. COWPER said, that the agreement with Mr. Pennethorne was that he should give his services to the Board as acting surveyor and consulting architect; but when he was employed to furnish designs, or act as an architect in erecting new buildings, then he would receive his 5 per cent like other architects. In former days the Office of Works had three architects, who received a percentage-3 per cent, he believed-for their labours, and the Office was bound to employ those architects in every work which was erected. It was, however, thought that it would be an immense advantage that the Office should

not be restricted to any particular archi-| tect, but should have the selection of the best talent. Mr. Pennethorne had no absolute claim to be employed on any new work; but if the Office should prefer him to any other architect, he then took his ordinary position as an architect, and received his 5 per cent.

MR. COX said, that it appeared that Mr. Pennethorne had his £1,500 a year when he had nothing to do, and when he had something to do he then took his 5 per cent. MR. COWPER observed that Mr. Pennethorne received £1,500 for his services as surveyor in valuing and purchasing property required for public and Government purposes, and the other payments were for services as architect in designing and superintending new buildings.

MR. DOULTON inquired whether Mr. Pennethorne had anything to do with the Foreign Office.

MR. COWPER replied that the building in Downing Street was being erected by Mr. Scott. When important works were to be executed by Votes of that House, it was thought undesirable that Mr. Pennethorne or any other gentleman should be necessarily employed. It was deemed better to appeal to the profession at large, and, after competition, to select the best man.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH thought that what Mr. Pennethorne did for his £1,500 ayear had not been satisfactorily explained. The right hon. Gentleman said that he acted as surveyor; but he perceived by the Estimates that there was a surveyor of works at £1,000 a year, and also an assistant-surveyor at £800 a year. The legal charges connected with the Board of Works amounted to no less than £4,000 a year.

MR. COWPER explained that Mr. Pennethorne was the surveyor who surveyed and negotiated the purchase of property that might be required, and Mr. Hunt was consulting surveyor in the office, giving his advice on matters referred to him.

MR. COX asked what the man did who received £1,000 a year.

MR. COWPER said, that the political head of the Department required a professional man like Mr. Hunt to give him his advice on matters coming within his special knowledge and experience.

MR. BLACKBURN said, he had no objection to the Board giving a good surveyor £1,000 a year, but why was it necessary to spend £5,000 a year in assistants? The Board had forty-three clerks, which seemed to argue an incredible quantity of writing.

MR. LYGON asked, whether some arrangement could not be come to by which the legal expenses of the two Departments of Works and Woods should not be swollen by their Parliamentary contests. Hon. Members would remember how the two Departments contended with each other about the Thames Embankment. It was for the responsible Advisers of the Crown to settle the squabbles of these two Departments.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he was not aware of any opposition between the Offices of Woods and Works that entailed expense. There was a question in regard to the Thames Embankment between the Woods and Forests on the one hand and the tenants of the Crown on the other, and the latter thought it worth their while to fall back upon an opinion given by the Commissioner of Crown Estates. It was, however, a mistake to suppose that there was any conflict in law.

MR. DOULTON inquired the cause of the delay in laying before the Chancellor of the Exchequer the materials necessary for him to form an opinion in respect to the Estimate required for the new buildings at Kensington designed by Captain Fowke.

MR. COWPER said, that as the building was intended for the Natural History collections of the British Museum, it was thought right to give the officers of the Museum an opportunity of considering the plans. Accordingly, Captain Fowke's plans were sent to the Trustees at the end of last year. They were anxious to give them full consideration, and they had only lately expressed an opinion, which was not however final, as they had referred the plans to a sub-Committee. When the Trustees had made up their minds the Government would resume its action.

MR. BLACKBURN said, that the Commissioner of Woods took one view about the proposed road between Piccadilly and Park Lane, and the Commissioner of Works another.

MR. COWPER said, that the Office of Works was concerned in the scheme, because a portion of the Park was proposed to be taken. It was true that there was some difference between the Commissioner of Woods and himself as to the propriety of making the street; but no expense was caused thereby to either Department. The best and most costly plan would be the widening of Park Lane, but the work must be undertaken by the Metropolitan Board of Works, and he doubted whether the

Board would incur the expense of the best plan.

SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE said, that having served on the Thames Embankment Committee, he could assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a fierce war was waged between the two Departments. The Commissioner of Woods thought that the Crown property was damaged by the proceedings of the Commissioner of Works. What additional expense was caused by this fierce contest he did not know, but it occupied the Committee for a very considerable period, and he could not but think that disputes of this kind ought to be avoided. The matter had been argued by counsel, and considerable expense and loss of time had been incurred. He quite agreed that there should be a thoroughly good legal authority in the office of the Commissioner of Works to consult, and also that there should be a thoroughly competent architect. But for new works why should he not have recourse to the architects and surveyors who were to be found in such abundance in the metropolis? He was confident that if that plan were adopted a saving of expense would be effected in the Department.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, it was quite as true that the speech just delivered by the hon. Baronet had cost the public a certain sum of money. Every hour of the sitting of that House involved expense in the shape of the labour of officers, wear and tear of furniture, and light; and in that sense only was there any difference in the expense which arose between the Office of Works and the Office of Woods. Then the hon. Baronet laid down the proposition that if the Commissioner of Woods and Works had been the same person, no difference would have arisen. That was undoubtedly true. Twenty years ago that was the case; but Parliament was not satisfied with the state of things, and an Act was passed, the object of which was to give an independent voice to those officers who were placed in the immediate control of the Crown Estates. Occasionally, the Commissioner of Works, viewing a ques tion from one point, formed a different estimate from that of the Commissioner of Woods, who looked at it from another point of view, but the general result had been beneficial. Parliament had a fuller and more perfect bearing of what was to be said upon a question in reference to the several interests involved, and there was no additional expense to the State.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK asked
Mr. Cowper

whether it was the intention of the Government to erect upon the piece of ground at Brompton the building designed by Captain Fowke for the reception of the Natural History collections of the British Museum.

MR. COWPER said, it was the intention of the Government to make a proposal, but he thought it better not to go now into the question what that proposal might be. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that no step had been taken which would in the slightest degree prevent full and ample consideration of the subject, and nothing would be brought before the House without ample notice.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH protested against the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying that Parliament in its wisdom had thought proper to do so and so, when the fact was that they had been beguiled into doing so by the Government. Formerly the Offices of Woods and Forests and of Works were one and the same, and represented the interests both of the Crown and the public. But now the Crown lands were no longer considered to be held for the benefit of the public. He should take an opportunity of showing that additional expense had been thrown upon the public by the separation of the Departments. Vote agreed to. House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported on Monday next; Committee to sit again on Monday next.

DOCKYARD EXTENSIONS BILL.
[BILL 145.] COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair.'

SIRJAMES ELPHINSTONE said, that in 1863 an opinion had been expressed by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, when introducing the fortification scheme, which would be perfectly applic able in support of the Motion which he was about to make. That opinion had been already read in the House that night, and he would therefore content himself at that late hour with moving, that in the opinion of this House the expense of the contracts for Dockyard Extensions to be authorized by this Bill would best be defrayed by Terminable Annuities, as in the case of the Fortifications, under the Act 26 & 27 Vict. c. 80.

Clause 1 (Power to make Contracts for Works).

In reply to Mr. CORRY,

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, that the Malta dock was not included in the Bill, because an annual Vote of a comparatively small sum would be sufficient for the works there.

MR. LYGON asked what guarantee the contractors for the works scheduled in this Bill would have that the Government would propose a Vote in the Estimates to pay them for their contract. The sum for payment for the conveyances of the mails between Dover and Calais under the present arrangement had never been proposed in Committee of Supply.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE. QUER said, that the last subject to which the hon. Gentleman opposite ought to call attention was the Churchward contract. Surely after the Report of the Committee and the ratification of that Report by the House of Commons, the Government would not have been justified in proposing any Vote for the continuance of that contract. MR. LYGON, as one of the Members of the Board of Admiralty who had signed. the Churchward contract, declared that he had never seen any reason to regret that step, and he denied that the House of Commons had ever pronounced a condemnation of that contract.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, if the hon. Gentleman was dissatisfied with the decision of the House, he could at any time move a Resolution on the subject, and he was prepared to debate the question with him.

MR. LYGON said, the right hon. Gentleman knew that no person could propose

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he found he had understated the case, because he was informed that the subject was discussed in Committee of Supply, and afterwards upon the bringing up of the Report the proposition was made to omit certain words which raised the question.

MR. LYGON again declared that no Vote was ever proposed. This was the raised, and he challenged the right hon. only mode in which the question could be Gentleman to raise it by proposing a Vote.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, the security for the contractors would be that the engagements had received the sanction of Parliament.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.
House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next.

LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND) BILL.

On Motion of Mr. BLAKE, Bill to amend the Laws relating to Lunatic Asylums, and to make better provision for the care and treatment of poor persons afflicted with insanity, in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BLAKE and Mr. M MAHON.

Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 171.]

MILITIA BALLOTS SUSPENSION BILL.

On Motion of The Marquess of HARTINGTON, Bill to suspend the making of Lists and the Ballots for the Militia of the United Kingdom, HARTINGTON and Mr. PEEL. ordered to be brought in by The Marquess of

Bill presented, and read 1o.

DEFENCE ACT (1860) AMENDMENT BILL.

Bill to explain "The Defence Act, 1860," ordered On Motion of The Marquess of HARTINGTON, to be brought in by The Marquess of HARTINGTON and Viscount PALMERSTON.

Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 176.]

MILITIA PAY BILL.

Bill "to defray the Charge of the Pay, Clothing, and Contingent and other Expenses of the Disembodied Militia in Great Britain and Ireland; Officers, Adjutants, Paymasters, Quartermasters, to grant Allowances in certain cases to Subaltern Surgeons, Assistant Surgeons, and Surgeons' Mates of the Militia; and to authorise the Employment of the Non-commissioned Officers," presented, and read 1o.

House adjourned at half after One o'clock, till Monday next.