that they would be obliged to seek em error when he stated, that the navy of France and the navy of Europe were sy-ployment from foreign states. Whatever nonimous terms. I admit that present reluctance they might feel to this, they appearances naturally induce the belief, might, by dire necessity, be compelled to that those of Spain and Holland are inti- it. On this ground he wished the nummately attached to France; but whatever ber of seamen to be employed were con may be their force, are we unprepared to siderably greater than it is; for he knew, meet them combined? No. For the insult from his own experience, that what was to the British officer in the port of Lisbon called an ordinary seaman, could hardly the most ample satisfaction was readily find employment at present, either in the given. The fleets of France, Spain, and king's or in the merchants' service. He Holland, stood thus at the beginning of the had himself been present at some of the war: France 105 sail of the line, Spain changes which had taken place in France; 79, and Holland 27. What was the re- they resembled more the changes of sult of the war, which covered this coun- scenery at a theatre than any thing else. try with so much glory? Why, that at Every thing was done for stage effect, and the conclusion of the war, France had but whether it was the death of Cæsar, the 39, Spain 68, and Holland 16. What fall of Byzantium; or the march of Alexaddition can there have been made, by ander, it seemed to Frenchmen almost building new ships, to such a force, to equally indifferent. If the invasion of excite alarm in the breast of an English Britain was to be produced, it might have man, when I state that we have at present stage effect enough to draw 400,000 vo192 sail of the line, 209 frigates, 129 lunteers to join in the procession. Under sloops, and 243 smaller craft? With an those circumstances, he wished that this excess of 60 sail of the line above the country should always be in a situation to combined fleets of France, Spain, and call together speedily a strong naval force, Holland, what have we to fear; and what to frustrate any attempts on the part of apprehension can be felt for our safety, the enemy. when it is known, that in case of the renewal of hostilities, 50 sail of the line can be prepared for sea within one month, and even a larger number, should the exigency be pressing? Thus are we situated, ready for any event. Whether this state of preparation proves that want of energy on the part of administration, which the right hon. gentleman attributes to them, I leave the House and the country to deter mine. It is our sincere wish to maintain peace; but if the honour of the country should be wounded, or its security endangered, it is our determination to be in a state to meet the enemy. I hope the establishment now proposed will not long exist. I should be sorry to consider it the permanent peace establishment. When the circumstances of Europe shall render it proper to reduce our force to the most economic standard, I shall feel most sincerely happy; but the arrival of that period, and the security of peace, will depend much on the acquiescence of the House in this vote. Sir Sidney Smith expressed considerable regret, at the great reductions which were suddenly made, both in the king's dock-yards, and in the navy in general. A prodigious number of men had been thus reduced to the utmost poverty and distress; and it might be apprehended Mr. Sturges supported the resolution, from his idea of the necessity of a large establishment; but expressed surprise that ministers had assigned no reason for this increase, and earnestly hoped that it would be yet possible to continue in peace. Captain Markham defended the con duct of the admiralty board, in contradiction of the instances adduced by sir Sidney Smith. Lord Hawkesbury said, it certainly was not usual to introduce the votes for the service of the army and navy, by any specific explanation of the circumstances which appeared to render such an establishment necessary. What bore on this point in his majesty's speech did, however, clearly point out to the House that a proposition of the kind now offered was in contemplation. The language which the hon. gentlemen on the other side held on the present occasion, was contrary to all parliamentary precedent. He remembered on one occasion, when a right hon. gentleman, late at the head of administration, proposed, in a time of peace, a larger establishment than usual, another hon. gentleman (Mr. Fox), though then acting in opposition to the measures of government, said, that if they would assure the House that there were circumstances in the state of Europe to justify the measure, he should support it. Ministers at this | noble friend with great pleasure; and if moment were entitled to confidence on the speech he had delivered had preceded the same principles. They might fairly that which gave rise to this debate, he contend, that, in the present circumstances believed the debate itself would have been of Europe, such an increased establish- rendered unnecessary. He, however, ment was necessary. They did not wish, agreed entirely with the proposition of however, to rest the proposition on such a setting forth the inquiry which produced foundation. Without saying any thing that speech; for if ministers had mainabout private negotiations which might tained an entire silence, he did not think exist, he put it to the House whether the House could have been warranted in there did not exist in Europe at this mo- proceeding upon the measure now proment such known circumstances as, inde- posed to them in the manner in which mipendent of any other consideration, fully nisters seemed to have expected. He justified ministers in proposing a large observed that parliament proceeded to naval establishment? He was aware the discussion of his majesty's speech, that, consistently with a very laudable under circumstances that were agreed to principle of economy, small establishments be very alarming; so much so, that exwere held to be desirable. It had long traordinary armaments were deemed to appeared to him, however, that this sys- be necessary. With the explanation tem of low establishments was founded in given by his noble friend he professed very mistaken policy. It had been proved himself in general, to be satisfied. Cirby the history of the wars of this country, cumstances had attended these estimates, that it was not till a late period that we which never attended any other in time of were enabled to put forth all our energies, peace or war. The proposal for the augand though ultimately successful, we were mentation was originally for three months, always foiled in the first instance. With the vote of that night proposed it for the reference to economy, therefore, he would year. Now, wherefore should that vote contend for the policy of a large estab- be continued for the year. If there had lishment. In the prospect of a renewal of been no change in our circumstances war, this was particularly obvious, since since the discussion of his majesty's commencing a war with a small establish- speech, he must lament the fluctuation ment, a considerable proportion was with- which had taken place in our councils, drawn from active service, and employed and which rendered it necessary that this in recruiting our armies, reduced to a mere establishment should be voted for a year skeleton. So much, he said, on the gene- instead of three months. He begged to ral principle of establishments. But, on subscribe, however, to what the noble the avowed principles of gentlemen on lord had stated in explanation that night. the other side, it was unnecessary for him He rejoiced in the explanation which had to offer any thing in defence of the pro- been given, for it would afford to the peoposition now before the House. With ple a knowledge of their true situation. It the annexation of Belgium and Holland did not, however, follow, that ministers to France, with the immense influence were advocates for war, by the preparashe had acquired over dependent states, tions they were now making; they might with the views with which she had at all see this country, at present, without such times regarded the interests of this coun- a preparation, in more danger than if it try, to propose an establishment not were in a state of war. Nothing could greater than had existed in any former be more distant from his intentions peace, would be to propose the greatest than to convey the slightest disrespect absurdity. Circumstances in Europe, of his noble friend; nor could he be supknown and admitted, were the grounds on posed to allude to any deficiency either which ministers offered the present pro- in the talents or the zeal of his noble position for the establishment of the year friend, for the full discharge of the office 1803. After that period had expired, it which he held. He thought, however, that would again become the duty of the the House was entitled to expect some House, under an enlarged consideration explanation upon the subject of Switzer. of what the relative situation of this coun- land. What he wished to know was, try and Europe might be, to determine whether the honour of the country was in whether the same establishment should any way committed upon that question? be maintained, increased, or reduced. He was satisfied that the circumstances of Europe required the present augmentation, [3 X] Mr. Canning said, he had heard his [VOL. XXXVI.] and, perhaps, greater; and therefore it had his most cordial concurrence. The Attorney General said, that the course which this debate had taken was so extraordinary, that he felt great difficulty in offering himself to the House; and yet he knew not how to suffer the debate to pass unnoticed. It was most extraordinary that persons of the sentiments which had been professed that night, and on former occasions, should have accompanied those sentiments with the observations he had heard. A compliment was expressed by the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, to his majesty's ministers, for the vote which they now proposed to the House; and yet he censured them for observing a perfect silence and reserve, or rather concealment of the reason they had for proposing such vote, which reason, when given, was that which was perfectly notorious, so that ministers were censured for being silent on what had been already spoken, reserved on what had been already communicated, and for concealing that which was already notorious, namely, that they proposed this vote on the state of things, as known already to every man in the country. This was certainly very curious but who were they that complained upon this occasion? Not those who, by their former declarations, had given them to understand they expected the peace establishment to be reduced; but the complaint came from those who agreed in the vote, and thought it came at the present time with peculiar propriety. A very exaggerated statement had been made of the forces of France, and of the inadequacy of the resources of this country to meet those forces. To those gentlemen who dealt so much in amplification in both ways, he would only say, that whilst their declamations were so much at variance with their sentiments, their opposition to ministers could never be considered in any other shape than government votes; so that, in whatever way impartial persons considered this dissertation it would have all the appearance of debate, while nothing existed upon which there was a fundamental difference. Yet, if any one had entered the House in the middle of the speech of any of those who so laboured in epithets to paint the dangers of the country and the state, he would have supposed the danger so imminent, that nothing could save us. From all this, therefore, he had a right to infer that men, not measures, were the objects of attack; that those so violent in their phillippics against ministers, were only actuated by a violent desire for their places; for he was persuaded, that could they only supplant them, from the knowledge he entertained of their talents and their zeal, they would pursue precisely the very same principles. Dr. Laurence said, that as to the vote of 50,000 seamen, he was persuaded it was wholly inefficient. If we looked to France, we should find that, since the conclusion of the definitive treaty, she had increased her army nearly 100,000 men; her navy she was increasing in the same manner. He was of opinion, that we should keep up ship for ship with that country, and seaman for seaman, if we expected to be safe. He was of no party, and he could not be arraigned of seeking the places of any party; he was content with the produce of an honourable profession, and possessed no ambition beyond it. He therefore was not to be coupled with any The resolution was agreed to. Debate on the Army Estimates.] Dee. 8. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to which the Army Estimates were referred, The Secretary at War said:-I rise, Sir, to propose the establishment of the army for the ensuing year; and before I enter into the particulars of the statement, I beg leave to offer a short general view of the motives and circumstances which induce his majesty's ministers to require such a force. The estimates now on the table exceed in number and expense any thing that this country has known in any former period of peace. The main questiou for the decision of the House is, whether the circumstances of the present times be such as to render such a force as is now proposed necessary, and if this should be decided in the affirmative, it will then remain to determine whether the division and description of the force be our neighbour, and his permanent establishment, of which I will take a short view, not with a design to excite any idea of keeping up a proportionate establishment here, but merely to show that there is a necessity for making some increase, if we wish to provide for our own security. The French military establishment for the present year consists of 84 regiments of cavalry, consisting each of four squadrons, at 150 men a squadron, 46,350; 110 demi-brigades of the line, and 130 of light infantry 341,000; 10 demi-brigades of veterans for garrisons 13,160; artillery 26,600; making a total regular estab the most eligible, and whether its distribution be such as is best accommodated to the exigencies of the public service. That in the present time a larger force is necessary for the security of Great Britain, than at former periods of peace, it is hardly necessary for me to waste time in attempting to prove. The circumstances of Europe, and the relative situation of this country, are too obvious to escape the observation of any thinking man. The overgrown power of France, arrived to a magnitude beyond that which the ambition of Louis 14th projected; the menacing attitude of that country, the ambition and enterprise of its present go-lished force of 427,110; and if to these vernment, have not only brought these are added 27 legions of gendarmerie, and feelings home to every British spirit, but other persons in arms, and liable to be have also impressed them deeply on every called out, the French government has at rational mind in Europe. The state of command 929,900; Such being the geothe question has already been distinctly graphical position, and such the military laid down, as to the conduct we are to power of France, no man can deny the nepursue under these circumstances; to cessity of an increased establishment on our maintain the present peace as long as we part. I have been long adverse to the parsican with honour; to fulfil the conditions monious system of peace establishments. I of it, as far as depends on us, with exact- am satisfied, that though no considerable ness and good faith; to abstain from all evil has befallen this country in consequence irritating language, but to resist all hostile of the smallness of its armed force in times aggression. It is our duty to be well of peace, much mischief might have beprepared, and our preparations should be fallen it, and our safety might have been strong, as well on land as at sea. Our much endangered, if the enterprise of our navy alone, however great, is not sufficient rivals had been proportioned to the hatred to guard the whole extent of our posses- by which they now show themselves actusions, widely as they are spread through ated towards us. No hope can be enterevery quarter of the globe it will be suffici- tained of enjoying repose without a just ent to remind the committee, that Franceis sense of national security; nor has any now in possession of the Netherlands, of nation a right to expect that it will remain Holland, of the course of the Maese and unmolested, unless it possesses such means the Lower Rhine, and the fortresses on of defence as render it dangerous for any the banks of these rivers. This is the rival power to insult its honour or to infirst time that parliament has been called vade its rights. Without these means of upon to vote a peace establishment under defence no treaty is secure: but with such such circumstances, and therefore I was means any treaty may remain inviolate much surprised when I heard an hon. for a number of years. The maintenance gentleman (Mr. Fox) maintain, that of standing armies is generally censured there was no reason why a larger estab- as being attended with certain expense, lishment than usual in former periods of and being eventually dangerous to the peace should be maintained in Great Bri- constitution; and unquestionably the tain; and that there were reasons why smallest standing army is so, unless coneven a smaller force would suffice every stitutional, authorised, and established. where but in the West Indies, for there But w know very well that ever since even he did not think the increase unne- the Revolution, and in the best adminiscessary. Let the hon. gentleman consi- tered times of our constitution, such arder, that in the last peace, Holland was mies have been admitted and maintained. friendly to us; the Netherlands were un- It has been said by an ancient writer, that der the dominion of austria; and the good laws must be maintained by good course of the Rhine, down from Alsace, armies, and good armies by good disciwas in the hands of friendly powers. pline. In these times it is impossible that Another circumstance material for consi- |Ïaws or constitutions can be maintained, deration, is the actual military state of without a force capable of protecting and other 2 of 2 battalions each: 75 men to a company, as the other regiments. The total of cavalry 17,250; total of foot guards 6,060; 102 battalions of foot, consisting of the numbered regiments up to the 93rd, with two battalions of the royals, the 2nd battalion of the 52nd, 5 battalions of the 60th, and 5 battalions of the 94th, at 75 rank and file a company, with the exception of those on India service, which are to have 75 men in a com. pany, for the purpose of keeping up the securing our independence by sea and by land. I do not see how any objection can be made to the increase now proposed, and I go on this ground merely-the absolute necessity of such an augmentation; for if this augmentation be not necessary, then there is no need of any augmentation at all. But if it was deemed necessary in times of no danger to keep up 24,000, 30,000, and 40,000 men, surely it will not be deemed unnecessary, unadvisable, or unconstitutional, in these times of danger and difficulty, to maintain a greater num-numbers in that distant station. Six West ber. It has been said, that armies, cannot be subsisted in times of actual war, but by husbanding the means of their sup. port, and carrying the wealth and credit of the country to the highest. I am ready to allow, that the credit of the country ought to be maintained, and its wealth augmented as much as possible. If we omit to provide a military force proportioned to the urgency of occasions, our honour is compromised, and we are left exposed to danger without a resource. For when, according to the best information that can be collected from the most authentic sources, 100,000 men are the number sufficient for the security of the country, and fewer are deemed insufficient, the hon. gentleman cannot mean that the maintenance of that number is impolitic. Wealth, in my opinion, however it may be increased, cannot be deemed secure without a respectable military force. Money has, it is true, been called the sinew of war; but that sinew cannot preserve its tone, without a body, and the body here is an army ready to be resorted to without loss of time. I have to mention that Ceylon and Trinidad, newly added to our dominions, require an increase proportioned to their extent and importance, an absolute increase without any relative consideration of times or circumstances. It is meant to keep up three regiments of horse guards, and 27 of dragoon guards and dragoons, on the same regulation as in the last peace. The general division is to be 8 troops in a regiment, each troop to consist of 60 rank and file; of these, 10 to be dismounted. The dismounted men will be disciplined like the others, while they afford a saving to the public of 50,000l. a year; and at the same time can occasion no material delay, even in case of urgency, as horses are much more easily procured than men. The foot guards, as usual, to consist of 3 regiments, 1 of 3 battalions, and the India regiments, 6 of the 12 kept up last year having been reduced. These troops, consisting of men of colour, are found useful for many services in the West Indies, which Europeans cannot perform, and, when mixed with Europeans, form a very respectable force in the field: the 6 regiments consist of 4,158 men. To these are to be added the foreign corps, consisting of the king's German regiment, Stuart's regiment, which distinguished itself so much in Egypt; 3 Swiss regiments, those of Meuron, Rohan, and Watteville; making altogether 3,532 men. The staff corps, consisting of 4 companies, and the corps of waggoners, which had been found extremely useful. The total of this force, including the regiments serving in India, and counting officers, is 128,909.-I now come to the distribution: 60,000 rank and file, including 15,000 cavalry, are to serve as guards and garrisons in Great Britain and Ireland. A body of 30,000 men for the plantations, and the remainder of the force to be employed in India. I will now state, particularly the force in India, which consists of 3 regiments of dragoons, and 14 British regiments of foot, consisting of 16,100 men, and the regiment of Meuron, consisting of 1,150 wen. The troops now in India cannot come home till late, and it is, therefore, difficult to give a precise statement respecting them. There are now 17 battalions there, and it is intended that 14 shall be kept there. The total expense of guards and garrisons, and the plantation estimate, including India, will be about 4,015,000l. [Here Mr. Fox asked across the table, whether the garrison battalions were included in this calculation? He believed that with them the whole force would be above 130,000 men.] The hon. gentleman is right. I did omit the garrison battalions, consisting of 5,000 men. It has been found expedient to form seven new garrison battalions on a better found |