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there are, however, several articles which , vances to the royal family, though satisI feel it incumbent on me to advert to. factory reasons can be given for them. I In page 52 it will appear, that part of the can state with truth to the House, that debt is the debt under the first class, under the pressure and difficulty which including the debts incurred by the queen, existed with regard to the state of his on account of the younger branches of majesty's household and civil list, I con. her family. When it is considered what ceive his majesty's ministers would have is the number and time of life of the been little less than criminal if they had younger branches of the royal family, and not adopted some method of relief. I am that the expense on their account falls unwilling to enter into particulars, unless exclusively on the queen, it will be no called upon; but I am prepared. His small matter of astonishment that the debt majesty's ministers had no alternative beshould have amounted to no more than a tween the one they have adopted, and the sum of 28,6346. A very large portion of criminality of exposing his majesty to inthis arose upon the marriage of the prince convenience and difficulty.- The chan. of Wales. In the same page will be found cellor of the exchequer then went over all a charge for the princess Charlotte. It the items of which the arrears now stand. is made to commence in 1797, though it ing are composed, the amount of which was not advanced till a later period. I was 990,0531., a sum which, he said, it am sure it will be felt by the committee, was impossible to contemplate without that it is quite impossible the expense of regret; but he had stated how a large supporting the princess Charlotte should portion of it had been created; no part be borne by the prince of Wales, consi- of it was owing to profusion, none of it dering the restrictions to which he is sub- had been corruptly employed, and it apject by the act of parliament for arranging peared from the report what a vast por. the liquidation of his debts. It will, per- tion of the whole of this went to the haps, be for the committee to say, whe- necessary purposes of the civil governther it is not a charge that ought to be ment, and was not at all appropriated, taken from the civil list altogether, and as some bad most erroneously supposed, thrown on the consolidated fund ? It is a for his majesty's personal use, or for his charge that cannot be borne by the prince own household establishment. Now, be of Wales, and ought not to be imposed would ask any gentleman in the comupon his majesty. I beg the attention of mittee, if any there were, who were disthe committee to pages 39 and 40, re- posed to advert to the amount of the preferring to the pensions to the late ministers sent deficiency, to compare it with those at foreign courts. I am well aware that former aids of the civil list, to which he some farther information is necessary. had adverted in the early part of his obAmple information will be given; and, servations to the committee, to comwhatever deficiency there may be in mine, pare the advance made in the expenwill be supplied by my noble friend near diture under the various heads of the me. I will observe that, with regard to report, on the subject of the civil list, foreign ministers resident, it has been and then to see whether there was to be universally admitted, that the estimate found in any part of the expenditure the made in 1786 was insufficient. The pen- character of profusion? Had we seen any sions of the late ministers at foreign courts thing but what was to be esteemed a have increased considerably within the necessary splendor on the part of the last two years; yet notwithstanding the royal family?—Certainly none. We had increase which has taken place within the seen one sort of abundance on the part of last two years is so considerable, the the chief magistrate of the community in actual inorease in the last sixteen years which we had the happiness to live. amounts to no more than 129,643l. There Every virtue that belonged to that chais another branch which falls under the racter abounded in him ; but with respect head of Occasional Payments. The com- to outward splendor, the loyal feelings mittee perceiving there was an error of of the people would have gone much 20,0001. thought it right to avail them- further, if desired, than they had hitherto selves of the information contained in the been called upon to do; and he would book required to be kept by Mr. Burke's venture to say, that the people had rather bill. In page 46 of the Report will be been disappointed for want of more, than found the amount of royal bounties. It satiated with too much of that splendor. is not my intention to observe on the ad- The sum advanced for the discharge of

the arrears of the civil list for the same | Now, although it was not his Intentiin to period, in another reign, was more than propose any permanent addition now to was now required. And he wished to the civil list, yet he had no difficulty in know, whether there was any reason for saying it would, in the present condition supposing that, although 1,400,0001, were of things, be impossible to maintain, withjustly granted at a former period, there out further aid, the necessary splendor ought not to be 900,0001. granted now? of the Crown, and to support the neces. For his part, comparing the present with sary expenditure of the royal family ; and the former time, and that when the last therefore, he hoped, that some relief aid was granted, and the unavoidable ex. would be afforded to the civil list herepenses in the interim, of which every indi- after, by taking away from it some charges vidual of condition in this country felt the which at present bore, and which, in his force, in his own and his family expenses, opinion, did not belong to it, and laying he thought the present arrears extremely them on the consolidated fund. Several moderate, that it gave full proof of re- heads of charges now upon the civil list, markable frugality; that the economy was and which had been so during the war, very great; for wbich reason he trusted might with propriety be charged on the there would be no opposition to the reso consolidated fund, and which charges were lution, with which he should have the very heavy and enormous on his majesty's honour of concluding. He had no hesi- civil list revenue during the war. The actation in saying, that, according to his count of all which should be laid before opinion, the augmentation for the younger them: and after such accounts were laid branches of the royal family, or advances before the House, he hoped the subject made to them, should not in future be would be brought forward again for dischargeable on the civil list, but on the cussion, for which he should be perfectly consolidated fund, of which however par- ready. He thought it was unnecessary liament were to judge. If the House for him to trouble the committee any furadopted the resolution which he should ther, for the present; he was thankful for have the honour of moving, the expense the indulgence he had met in the course in the first instance would fall on the of what he had delivered before the compeople; there was, however, a circum- mittee, some parts of which were naturally stance to be attended to in that particular. dry and unengaging, and, he was afraid The committee would recollect that he rendered more so from the manner in expressed a hope, on a former occasion, which it had been treated by him. He that there would be some means of a should now conclude with moving, “ That diminution of the burthens of the people it is the opinion of this committee, that a by the sale of the crown lands in the West sum not exceeding 990,0531. be granted Indies, St. Vincent, &c. that was not, to his majesty, to discharge arrears and however, to be provided for at this mo- debts due and owing on the civil list, on ment, but might become matter for future the 5th of January, 1802.” discussion; but he begged to be under- Mr. Fox rose and said :-Sir, there is slood, as being most clearly of opinion, no man in this House less disposed than that without any reference to such re- I feel myself, at any time, to find fault sources as that to which he had now with such measures as may be conducive binted, and if there had been no hope of to the comfort, the splendor, and the any such resource, the payment of the dignity of every branch of the royal present arrears of the civil list would be family; and particularly what may tend matter of unquestionable propriety, and to the ease and happiness of the chief such as would become the wisdom of par- magistrate of the state, as far as I can reliament to provide for. The subject there, concile such proceedings to the duty I fore of these resources from the West owe to my own constituents in particular, lodies, was fit matter for a separate and and the general interests of the country. distinct discussion. The civil list arrears If it could be supposed that humour or ought, in his opinion, to be paid off with temper were to govern any part of this out taking that matter into consideration discussion, the present is a moment in at all. He was well convinced that if which I could have little disposition to there were no resources, but such as he indulge them. I have not been more had hinted at, parliament would find them than about four hours in town; and, abundant, in the good sense, the justice, since leaving my carriage, have heard of and the loyalty of the people of England. two articles of news than which I know of

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nothing of a public nature that could be and the country provide for all the ex-
more grateful to my feelings. The first pences (and God knows they have been
is that in which every man, wishing well severe enough lately!) of our fleets and
to his country, must rejoice, I mean the armies, the revenues allotted to the crown
conclusion of the definitive treaty of must necessarily be at the disposition,
peace with France, and the second, that and subject to the control of parliament.
it is the intention of the minister to move It would be a strange and absurd doc-
for the repeal of the income-tax,-a tax trine indeed, to maintain that the public
the most oppressive, pernicious, and vex should take upon itself all the expense,
atious, that ever was imposed in any and leave the revenue precisely as it was
country; and tending more than any before : such a doctrine is too monstrous
other to subvert that respect in which a to have met with any support even in the
good government ought always to be held worst of times. Fortunately for us, some
by the people, and without, which there of our kings have been too improvident,
can be very little security for its subsist- by which they outran their incomes.
ing for any length of time. This, how- In treating of this question I do not
ever, is a subject which is by no means wish to be severe ; but I understand,
connected with good or ill humour, and that so much stress has lately been made
is solely dependent on what is consistent on the claims which some persons suppose
with our attachment to the throne, a the crown ought still to have upon a part
proper view to the laws of the land, and at least, if not the whole of the old here-
the sacred principles of the British con. ditary revenue, that I cannot withhold
stitution. However I may have been in- expressing briefly my opinion on that
structed or entertained by the right hon. subject. Were we now to allow the here-
gentleman, in the history he has given us ditary revenue to be the same as it was in
of the civil list during the last century, I former times, surely no gentleman could
do not conceive it to have been precisely possibly say that it should be applied to
in point, or to bear strongly on the present ihe purposes of the civil list only, I
question. My ideas upon that subject admit that the revenue of James 2nd was
differ vastly from those which have been two millions annually; but I believe no
brought forward in this committee; por one will venture to assert that it was
can I conceive how any thing respecting granted only for civil-list purposes. From
the revenues of the crown previously the time, however, that parliament exo-
to the Revolution, has more analogy to nerated the crown (for that is the faet)
the present civil list than what may be from the expense of levying and sup-
drawn from the remotest antiquity. The porting fleets and armies, from that mo-
revenues of the crown before the event ment the hereditary revenues became the
alluded to, compared with the present property of the public. It was so under-
civil list, was
as gold to silver.

The stood, and so expressed on the election king certainly possessed immense reve- of William 3rd. 'He could hold no herenues in former times, totally independent ditary revenue jure coronæ, for he wasof parliament: but for this revenue, what not the heir to the crown when he suchad he to do? He was to raise and main- ceeded James 2nd. I am aware that a great tain fleets and armies in times of war, as misunderstanding prevailed upon this well as in peace. It was no private in subject, and perhaps continues to precome of his own, as an individual, but a vail; but we are not now infected with trust from the public. It is very true, the superstitious notions imbibed by some that such revenue was not adequate to persons of that day. We know that meet extraordinary occasions; and though William 3rd ascended the throne, not by the monarch was bound, at his own ex- right, but by the choice and election of pence, to defend the country, and main- the people, and therefore had no rights tain the expenses of wars, as well as civil jure coronæ, nor any other rights but such government, in cases of necessity he ap- as had been covenanted. So of George 3rd. plied to parliament for assistance. Whe. He is not the heir of James 2nd, but of ther that mode was preferable to that William 3rd; nor has he any right to this which has been since adopted, is a ques. hereditary revenue, unless we go back to tion not worth discussing at this moment; the ancient and absolute rights of prebut I am free to confess, that I am a scription. What did the parliament of strong advocate in favour of the modern William 3rd do? Instead of the heredisystem. Now, however, that the House tary revenue, they appropriated others for

the civil list, to the amount of 700,000l. I application to parliament at one particular a year; and should they exceed that sum, period; but, if I mistake not, it was the surplus was to be at the disposal of merely to make up the deficiency between parliament. From the sum of 700,0001. the actual receipts of the revenue, and they deducted 370,0001. for public ser. 800,0001., which was about that time vices; decreed that the crown revenues settled as the limit of the civil list. The should be under their own control ; and right hon. gentleman has urged, that the came to what I consider to have been a civil list of his present majesty had been wise and salutary resolution, of granting loaded with annuities to the princess it to him for life. The same practice has Amelia, the duke of Cumberland, &c.; since been uniformly adopted at the com- but if these were liens on the civil list in mencement of every reign. I know per the present, they were equally so in the fectly well that there has been much dif. reign of George 2nd, who had also to pay ference of opinion on the question, whe- 100,000l. a year to the then prince of ther it would not be better to make these Wales. These annuities continued from grants of annual revenue from time to 1745 to 1760; the remainder of the civil time. This doubt so far operated in the list of his present majesty only for five; parliament of king William, that the pro- but George 2nd had paid them for the vision was at first made temporary, but space of fifteen years. I mention this it was afterwards thought expedient that principally, because I do not esteem it the provision should be for life. The altogether becoming in gentlemen to apsame line of conduct was pursued on the pear in this House, in the shape and accession of queen Anne, and has been manner of counsel, to depreciate the followed up in all the succeeding reigns. amount of the present revenues of the The right hon. gentleman has anticipated crown. the answer which might be given to some It is to be observed, that all those anparts of his statement. I know that it nuities which bung as incumbrances on has been a mistake made, not by lawyers the civil list of his present majesty, ceased or other well-informed persons, but by in the year 1786 ; that to the duke of courtiers, that the hereditary revenue Cumberland expired in 1765; that to the formed only a part of the revenue of the dowager princess of Wales in 1763; and crown. From general recollection also that to the princess Amelia in 1786; SO (for I have not lately had much access to that, in fact, the whole of them ceased the Journals) I think that in the reign of before the debt now brought forward queen Anne an application was made to began to accumulate. The proposition, parliament in aid of the civil list, at a so much boasted of, which was made in time when 800,000l. had been expended, the beginning of the present reign, would though the grant was no more than have been a good one, if properly fol. 700,0001. Great stress has been laid on lowed up.

lowed up. By that proposal the king the expenses bis majesty has been put to relinquished nothing, because, constitus in consequence of his family ; but let it tionally, he had nothing to give up in be remembered, that there were equal point of right, there being no right in incumbrances in the reign of George ist; existence. All that was done may more that in the reign of George 2nd annuities properly be considered in the way of an to the duke of Cumberland, the princess exchange. His majesty, indeed, had a Amelia, and the dowager princess of right to expect that parliament would Wales, were charged upon the civil list make the same allowance to him that they to the amount of 100,0001. which, out of did to his ancestors; but when a civil list the grant of 700,0001., left only 600,0001. of 800,0001. a-year was granted to his of actual revenue. It is true, that in that grandfather, it was implied that the excess, reign there were three applications to which was never very considerable, should parliament for relieving the civil list; but be subject to the controul of parliament, Î believe, and think I may say with some and that he should possess no more inconfidence, that the relief was effected come from the revenues of this country by a two-penny tax on all pensions and than what the parliament thought proper salaries, which was, in fact, a mode of to allow him. The right hon. gentleman, making the civil list supply and make in tracing the history of the civil list good its own defalcations, without any through the course of the present reign, additional burthens on the public. In might have called to mind, that it was the same reign there was a successful settled under an administration composed (VOL. XXXVI.]


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of persons who were considered as his to act (what, in the vulgar phrase, is
majesty's peculiar favourites. The duke called) handsomely by the monarch on
of Newcastle was then prime minister, and the throne in pecuniary affairs, the worse
lord Bute and the late lord Chatham, effect is sure to flow from it; and I always
secretaries of state. The right hon. gen. feel great pleasure in recollecting the
tleman seems to think the provision was speech which the then Speaker of the
less than it ought to be; but let me ask, House of Commons, sir Fletcher Norton,
is it to be believed that such an adminis- made upon that occasion to his majesty
tration would ever have thought of pro- at the bar of the House of Lords, May 7,
posing an inadequate revenue? But sup- 1777. That intrepid and public-spirited
posing they had done so, yet we must re- man told the king, that “in a time of
collect, that the several annuities already public distress, full of difficulty and dan-
mentioned were then so many incumbrances ger, their constituents labouring under
on the civil list; and yet we find that the burthens almost too heavy to be borne ;
debts it incurred in the first nine years your faithful Commons have not only
amounted to no more than 500,0001. granted to your majesty a large present
Though I was at that time a member of supply, but also a very great additional
this House, I remember little of the dis- revenue; great beyond example ; great
cussion, and do not recollect that I was beyond your majesty's highest expense ;
even present at the debate; but I recol- all this they have done in the well-grounded
lect reading some pamphlets at that time confidence that you will apply wisely what
published on the subject: one of these they have granted liberally. But if sir
was written by a gentleman whose pur. Fletcher Norton spoke thus of the distress
suits have since taken a more serious and and burthens of the country in 1777, what
holy turn-I mean Dr. Tucker, dean of character can be given to those of the
Gloucester, who treated the matter in a present day?
very facetious and good-humoured man- It reminds me, Sir, of the observation

In offering an apology for the pro- of Florus, who, living at a period when
ceedings, he said, that it was no extraor- the Roman empire was so infinitely ex-
dinary thing if a very young man, just tended, reflects with surprise, that his an-
come to his estate, and consequently not cestors allowed a triumph for victories
80 prudent and economical as experience over the Volsci ; and, in the same manner,
might in time teach him to be, and who when we look back to the year 1777,
had lately incurred the expenses of matri- when the public burthens were then
mony, enhanced by fêtes, a coronation, spoken of as so grievous, and when we
installation, &c.-It was no very extraor- view the infinite accumulation of taxes
dinary thing if such a man, possesed of since that period, we are tempted to com-
800,0001. annually should in nine years pare it to the observation of Florus on
contract a debt of 500,0001. The debt the triumphs of the Romans over the
first incurred was at the rate of 50,0001. Volsci, or some other petty tribes. The
a-year beyond the income allotted. Par- speech of sir Fletcher Norton, notwith-
liament, it is true, consented to pay it; standing the clamours of courtiers, was
but, by doing so, acted, in the opinion of approved. Although court sycophancy
many persons, rather rashly. In the year has of late increased to a degree that
1777 the ministers came again with ano- must disgust every generous mind, al.
ther demand ; and it appeared that the though servility has made such rapid
debt had increased more within the eight strides as, to every philosophic observer,
years between 1769 and 1777, than it had evidently tends to the utter destruction
done in the former nine years. The de- of the constitution, yet we cannot forget
mand I now refer to was for the sum of the subserviency and sycophancy of former
600,000l.; and though ministers were suc- periods. Notwithstanding the resentment
cessful, yet the minority, which condemned of the courtiers at the manly and spirited
the payment of the sum, was by no means language of the Speaker, it was finally
insignificant in point of numbers, but still carried, on a motion brought forward by
less so in respect to character and talents, myself, to thank sir Fletcher for his gene-
as the committee will acknowledge when ral conduct in the chair, and particularly
I enumerate among them sir George for the speech in question. This speech
Saville, Mr. Burke, Lord Sydney, &c. I was made by a man of eminent qualities,
have frequently had occasion to be con-
vinced, that the more parliament agrees


* See vol. 19, p. 213.

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