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eminent too in having filled the chair, a monarchy that the king should, by a fixed situation which of itself makes a man re- revenue, be enabled to pay his civil-list spectable; and within five years, during expenses, independent of parliament. If, the administration of the marquis of Rock, however, we find that four times in this ingham (a period when peerages were reign the debts of the civil list have been more sparingly granted than in the times brought to parliament, the king actually that have succeeded), sir Fletcher Norton becomes dependent on parliament to that was one of four persons who were honoured extent. What is the nature of the civil with that dignity. About this period, Mr. list ? Nobody imagines that every year Burke, a man of the greatest abilities, of the expenses will be exactly the same. the most eminent services, a man for It is sufficient that, on the whole, the funds whom, notwithstanding latter differences, shall be sufficient to meet what is allowed I have always retained the greatest vene to be an ample establishment. Till 1793 ration, brought forward a bill, the princi- there was no excess; since that period the ple of which was, that the debts of the arrear has accrued. What are we to infer civil list were criminal ; that when parlia- from this? Is it that a peace civil list will ment had settled what the expenditure not do for a state of war? When the civil should be, any excess was disobedience ; list of king William was fixed, was there that it was the duty of the king's ministers not the prospect of wars? In three cases to square the expense of the civil list by out of five the civil list since that period what parliament had fixed, not the busi- has been voted in time of actual war. ness of parliament to keep pace with the It is said, that it is necessary to mainextravagance of the king's ministers. tain the splendor of the monarchy; and Such, unquestionably, was the spirit of certainly I approve of that splendor, nor Mr. Burke's bill, and that bill clearly do I think his majesty has ever carried it lays down that such a mode of payment to excess; but, surely, if it were for urgent shall be adopted that the salary of the reasons at any time to be abridged, it highest class shall not be paid till that of would be reduced with most grace when the class immediately below is paid. I war calls upon the public in general to know that in the courts below an act must submit to such galling sacrifices. I conexplain itself; but here we may reason tend, therefore, that the civil list should upon the spirit and intent of the legisla- be voted for life, and the quantum fixed ture; and indeed I cannot perceive that by parliament ought not to be exceeded. the act is so loosely worded as the right Variations in the expenses from year to hon. gentleman argues ; far less can 1 year must have been foreseen, but an exadmit the position, that the violation of it ceeding ought to be compensated by a being never complained of in this House future saving. If an arrear is incurred, constitutes an argument that none has ministers should restrict the expenditure ever taken place. If omission or silence till it is paid off. Nay, reformations and were to be construed into acquiescence reductions, if necessary, should be adoptand approbation, not a principle of the ed, to prevent an accumulation of debt, constitution would remain entire, nor an and to create a sort of sinking fund for its abuse at one time or other without justific extinction. Parliament having settled cation. So much was Mr. Burke con- what the civil list should be, ministers vinced that his bill would produce the are guilty of usurping the legislative aueffect I have mentioned, that he boasted, thority in extending the actual amount as one of the advantages of it, that hence beyond the sum fixed. If it is thought forth no arrear in the civil list could ever improper to adopt reforms, or suspend or take place.

abolish places, to prevent the increase of But, if Mr. Burke's bill has not pro- debt, parliament ought to be consulted duced all the good he intended, what are on the emergency. There is no excuse we to do in regard to the arrear that has for accumulations. Experience shows accumulated ? I adhere to the practice of that "they ultimately must come before our ancestors, and to the principles on parliament. Why, therefore, is the cerwhich they fixed the civil list, as a mea- tain accumulation permitted ? With what sure essential to the existence of the face can ministers come down to parliamonarchy. But why, as a friend to the ment and say, “ You fixed the annual exmonarcby, do I.conceive that we ought pense of the civil list at 900,0001., but we not to acquiesce in the payment of this have actually spent 950,0001.: you made ærear? It is because it is essential to the one law, we have acted on another : you. plans.

must obey us; it is not for us to obey ployed in any business, however delicate you?” Observe, too, the time when mi- and important, was sent to Petersburgh nisters discover that the war adds so much to do that which our minister there could to the expense of the civil list. They an- surely have done; that is, intimate that nounce the effect when the cause has we gave up to the empress every thing ceased. They were afraid to tell us for she wished respecting Oczacow. Lately merly that the war added so much to too, Mr. G. Grenville, a gentleman for every expense of life, because the con- whom I entertain the greatest personal fession might have rendered the war un respect, was sent to Berlin, though we popular, and have interfered with their had at that court a minister, who, it is

to be presumed, was adequate to the duty Besides, ministers do not consider the of the office in which he was employed. aids the civil list has received. Mr. Burke's Last year, though we had a minister at bill, by abolishing places to the extent of Copenhagen, lord Whitworth was sent 30,000l. a-year, actually increased it to to Copenhagen to do for another what that amount. It is to be considered, too, Mr. Fawkener had done for him at Peters. that no small part of the civil list consists burgh; and his being sent on that occaof fixed salaries, such as the great officers sion showed that he was thought qualified of state, which have not been increased for more important business, if necessary, since the days of Charles 2nd. The source than that in which Mr. Fawkener superof increase, owing to temporary causes, seded him, and which was merely to make must apply only to the tradesmen's hills; a civil bow to the empress, and announce and if any part were at all to be paid off, that we had dropt all opposition to her this would be the branch of arrear I could views. All these occasional expenses, be induced to give my consent that par- therefore, seem to have been incurred liament should discharge. We have seen without any sufficient reason. the repeated interference of parliament Neither can I see that any addition to only produce new demands upon it. We the establishment of secretaries of state are told, however, that there has been no was necessary. Formerly all the business prodigality, no corruption. But, have we of America and the West Indies belonged all the items before us? Do we know the to the office of the secretary for the expense of the office of third secretary of southern department; and lord Chatham, state ?-a measure which, pernicious in a a personage undoubtedly of the greatest financial view, is still more so as a ques talents, but labouring under the intertion of constitution. On the present oc- ruptions of bad health, not only performed casion, the length of the late administra all the duty of those offices, but united tion has one advantage (an advantage, with them the conduct of a war, which however, which, in my opinion, is far at least vied in glory and success with from counter-balancing other evils), that that conducted by Mr. Dundas. The we know exactly to whom the arrear is office of third secretary, which had been imputable. When these ministers saw the established with such fatal effects to the growing arrears of the civil list, did they empire, was abolished by Mr. Burke's make any effort to relieve a fund already bill, and it was not till 1794 that it was overloaded ? No, they established a new revived; and though two of the secretaoffice of third secretary of state. This is ries of state, holding different offices, rebut one item. Many of the occasional solved to accept no salaries but for one expenses seem unjustifiable. At the time of the places, it was so arranged that those of the Russian armament, ministers, find- personages took their emoluments out of ing it necessary to yield to the opposition funds immediately affecting the public, they experienced in this House, aided by and in such a way as to relieve the civil the public voice without, were obliged to list to the extent of 8,0001. a year. Yet drop the ground of quarrel with the em- all the inferior expenses of the new sepress. At that time, though we had lord crecary's office were added to the civil Whitworth at Petersburgh, a person fully list. This, I dare say, produced since equal to the station in which he was ( 1794 an expense not under 70,000l. I placed, ministers thought proper to send conceive that the establishment of the new Mr. Fawkener, of whom from more in- office was altogether unnecessary; but, timate knowledge I can speak more even had it been wanted, ministers should confidently. Mr. Fawkener, a man of have considered their means of paying the the greatest abilities, and fit to be em expenses of the old establishment before they increased it with new. The civil proper to maintain the splendor of the list (to personify it) should have reasoned monarchy, the same argument holds good like an individual, “ I wish for this or the in the case of the heir apparent. Parliaother thing, but can I pay for it?" Thus ment, however, thought it right for a the civil list : “"I wish to have a new se- season to abridge the splendor of the cretary of state.” “ But have you the Prince of Wales's establishment, in order means to pay for him?"-" No; but the to supply a fund for the extinction of his House of Commons will pay cheerfully. debts ; and the same principle ought now I have good friends there."—" But ask to be acted upon. If this be not adopted, your friends first.”_" Oh, no; it is not at any rate only the tradesmen's bills necessary; I can use freedom; I know should now be paid; but the occasional my friends very well; they will be quite payments, and other branches of debt, delighted with the opportunity. They should be treated agreeably to the spirit have brothers and cousins to provide for. of Mr. Burke's act. I hope that peace Never fear; let the expense be incurred. will put an end to that species of misreSay nothing about the matter at present; presentation so prevalent of late years, the House of Commons will pay the that every man who opposes measures money, and ask no questions." Thus, calculated to increase the influence of the without the least necessity, and amid in- crown, and the power of a minister, is creasing debts, new modes of expense are an enemy to the monarchy itself. The employed without decency, and sanction- influence of the crown has increased so ed without a murmur.

much, that a temporary reform in its My opinion then is, that we ought to means of expense could be attended with reject the motion, and address his majesty no abridgment of its authority. Forthat he would be graciously pleased to merly, the crown had more to give with confine the expense of the civil list within smaller burdens. Its influence now arises 900,0001., and establish such savings and from the enormous naval and military reforms as will create a sinking fund to establishments, which the wars of Europe pay off the debt contracted by the mis- and our relations with other powers have conduct of his ministers. And here let produced. In these there is ample comme, in illustration, allude to the case of pensation for any suspension of inferior the Prince of Wales. We have been offices connected with the civil list. Mr. told, that the expenses of living are in- Justice Blackstone has been quoted. Mr. creased to such a degree that the funds of Justice Blackstone rather leaned to the the civil list are no longer adequate to principles most in fashion anterior to the their former objects. But surely the Revolution; and yet this writer has the expenses of the Prince of Wales must be good sense and candour to admit, that it still more dependent on the increase of may be doubted whether the admirable prices, and the charges on the mode of arrangement in fixing the civil list has not siving? The Prince of Wales having in compensated to the crown for many of the the first outset of life exceeded his allow- prerogatives which it formerly used to ance, has been restricted to 60,0001. a exercise. I can truly affirm, that it is year. But did parliament in his case my wish to contribute every exertion of consider the change in the value of money, mine, by every legitimate means, to proand in the price of living, by which the mote the happiness and glory of the sovePrince of Wales must be so much affect- reign; but there is a duty I owe to my ed? The Prince of Wales, in 1787, constituents and the country, not inferior having declared that his allowance, as to the respect I owe to the monarchy. I then fixed, was sufficient, I conceived wish to address the throne in language that he ought to adhere to that declara- different from the language of servility. tion, and that a reservation of his new Courtiers may flatter kings, by telling establishment should be made for the them that parliament will pay whatever payment of his debts. But has not the they think proper to spend. A different crown, by conferring marks of honour on, language is more seasonable and more sir Fletcher Norton, and more recently consonant to the principles which placed by the message in 1786, declared that the his majesty on the throne. I would resum of 900,000l. was sufficient ? for the commend this House to address his macivil list ought to be no less bound to ad- jesty with due respect, to suggest to him here to that engagement, than a young that he ought to reject the insidious adman just entering into life. But, if it is vice of his courtiers; that he should dis

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trust the ministers who mislead him into gentleman had spoken of an argumentum unnecessary expense; that it is his duty ad hominem, and had objected to any in all matters of finance to comply with interference being drawn from it ; but he the restrictions of parliament; and that contended, that he had a right to press it will be for the dignity of his crown, that argument, particularly if it related and for the prosperity of his people, to to a period near to that when the bill quadrate his expenses by the rules which passed, and when of course, if the bill the wisdom of parliament has prescribed. had been violated, those by whom it was

Mr. Pitt observed, that all that the brought in would not suffer it to be violated right hon. gentleman had suid resolved it. without censure. If the right hon. genself into two points: the first was, that it tleman would turn to the Journals, he was inconsistent with the duty of parlia- would find that the first excess upon the ment, and contrary to the system upon civil list, after Mr. Burke's bill, arose in which the civil list was granted to the the year ending the 5th of April 1784 ; crown for life, in any case to pay a debt at that time he (Mr. Pitt) had been three contracted


that civil list-the other months in office, and the other nine question was with respect to the meaning months of the year, the right hon. gen. of Mr. Burke's bill." In arguing upon tleman himself was secretary of state, this, and indeed upon almost every other Mr. Burke paymaster, and lord John subject, the right hon. gentleman had | Cavendish chancellor of the exchequer. always shown himself fonder of quoting It appeared distinctly upon the Journals, any other times than his own, from any that during the three last quarters of the ministers rather than those whom he had year 1783, when those gentlemen were opposed, and from any parliament rather in office, there was an exceeding upon than those of which he himself had the civil list to the same amount as in the formed a part; but the right hon. gentle- first quarter of 1784. This excess was man had been rather unfortunate in his laid before parliament, and was voted precedents upon this occasion, for there without any objection of this kind being was not one of them that was not an ex. urged against it; therefore it was evident, ception to the conclusion which he wished that the construction now contended for to draw : because the right hon. gentle was not then considered as the real conman had not been able to show a single struction of the bill. He confessed that instance in which, upon a case stated, the this question about the construction of debt had not been paid ; and he was sure the act never came into his mind; and in he could not point out any case in which looking at the words of the act, it cerall the circumstances had been so fully tainly was a matter of doubt. Undoubtexplained, and all the facts so clearly edly, if Mr. Burke's speech was referred laid before the House, as the one then to in order to construe the act, it might before the committee. He therefore did have borne the construction the right hon, not feel himself bound to argue at large gentleman put upon it; but it was rather the question, whether parliament, by singular that Mr. Burke, who was not granting the civil list for life, had deprived only a watchful member of parliament, itself of the power of relieving the crown but a severe and hostile opposer of minisfrom occasional embarrassments. He ters at that period, should not have said would not enter into a discussion of the one word about the violation of his own civil list, nor would he occupy the time act, or contend for any such construction of the committee by arguing much upon as that for which the right hon. gentlethe construction of Mr. Burke's bill, by man had now argued. In 1786, the subwhich the right hon. gentleman had con- ject was again brought under the notice tended that no debt upon the civil list of parliament, and certainly Mr. Burke could legally exist. With regard to this did not upon that occasion make any construction of the bill, he could only such objection; the motion having passed say, that it was one which he had never without a division, though at that time acted upon. His right hon. friend had very few questions passed without long stated, that there were many cases in discussions and divisions. Now, if the which, subsequent to the passing of that construction which the right hon. gentlebill, parliament had been apprized that man contended for, had been at that debts upon the civil list had been incurred, time considered the true construction of and which had not been considered as the bill, was it likely, in the state of violations of that bill. The right hon. parties at that day, to have been given


up without comment and without notice ? | country from a war, or of leading to the But the right hon. gentleman had said, conclusion of a peace. He would not now that every thing which parliament might enter into any argument about the object not happen to take notice of, was not of those missions, he would only ask, therefore to be considered as tacitly ac- whether a difference of 2 or 3,0001. arisknowledged. Certainly not in every in- ing from such a cause, and under all the stance; but the right hon. gentleman's circumstances of the times, ought to deargument did not apply in this case. This cide the conduct of government, or whewas not a mere paper laid before parlia- ther it ought to be introduced into a grave ment, and which might have escaped its assembly by a grave man? With regard notice ; it related to a very important to what the right hon. gentleman had said subject; it occupied the attention of parlia- about the office of secretary of state, it ment, and was acted upon. But the argu- a subject which had often been ment did not stop here, for in 1789 there mentioned in the House, and might was another application to parliament, in be discussed again ; but it would not consequence of one of the royal family be easy to state any period in which there coming of age; the subject was again dis- was occasion for greater exertion and cussed, but no such construction was vigilance than during the war, and which even hinted at. Before the war, the must in a considerable degree, be kept arrears undoubtedly were inconsiderable, up during the peace. The right hon. but after the war had commenced, the gentleman had spoken of the effect of subject was two or three times before par. peace and war upon the civil list; but his liament, when the arrears began to be right hon. friend had proved that this inconsiderable ; but during all that period crease did not arise from the war, as such, such a construction as that now contend- but had merely increased during a period ed for had never been put upon this bill. of war. No such idea had ever been adIt had been confessed, that up to the pe- vanced by his right hon. friend as that, riod of the war, the excess beyond the es- because the general expenses of the timate, did not exceed 25,0001. a year. country were great, the civil list must This the right hon. gentleman seemed in therefore be increased in proportion. It clined to overlook, and to consider the had been admitted, that some of the ex. excess as not taking place till the war. penses of the civil list must have been inIt certainly was to be wished that it had creased by the great increase in the price not been incurred, but when all the cir- of provisions; but there were some excumstances were taken into consideration, penses which absolutely arose out of the and when none of the items were liable to war; he would take for instance, one suspicion, he did not think the right hon. charge, that was foreign messengers, an gentleman would induce the committee to expense arising almost entirely out of the oppose the motion. One of the objections war. He found that this was charged of the right bon. gentleman was founded under the head of occasional payments, upon the charge for foreign ministers; under which head the greatest increase this was an article of expense which the had taken place. Many of these exright hon. gentleman used always to ap- penses could not have been forescen when prove of, but he had stated that his ob- the estimate was made. When, however, jection was not to the continuing the for- he saw that the pension list had been kept mer expenses, but to incurring new within its bounds, when he saw that the

The right hon. gentleman had ob- salaries had been diminished in general, jected, that different persons had been and when he saw that the increase which sent upon different missions, and had been had taken place was in articles the least witty upon the subject of lord Whitworth liable to suspicion; he thought that no being sent to Copenhagen, and another application had ever been made to parlia. gentleman having been sent on a former ment, the explanation of which was more occasion to Petersburgh, and had con simple, or one that came with a better tended that the whole of this charge grace than that now under consideration. ought to be struck off. It would indeed There remained but one point more, upon be most extraordinary economy, to say, which he would say a very few words, the civil list is in a state of difficulty, and and that was, respecting the nature of the therefore we must not send extraordinary civil list. Upon this part of the subject missions to foreign courts, although per- he would not enter into any discussion of haps it might be the means of saving the the different changes which had taken


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