tleman had declared his anxiety to do justice to the Canadians, and the right hon. Gentleman was pleased with his own exertions in that behalf; but there was not one soul in the colonies who did not condemn them. The persons principally to be affected by the inquiry were at a distance and without Representatives in that House, and that was another reason why the Committee should be impartial and efficient.

it was exercised, and issued the writ as requested. The case, however, of Mr. Mondelet was very different. He, in fact, was not expelled, and, therefore, the Governor refused the writ. The circumstances were these:-A Bill was in progress rendering an acceptance of office a disqualification for a seat in the Assembly. Mr. Mondelet accepted a mere honorary office, and the Legislative Assembly having Viscount Howick rose rather to correct passed a Resolution to the effect proposed some errors into which hon. Members had in the Bill, applied for a new writ, on the fallen than to discuss the question at large. ground that Mr. Mondelet had vacated Indeed, as a Committee of Inquiry was to his seat. Of course the Governor refused be appointed, such a discussion at that the writ, for Mr. Mondelet had not been moment would be ill-timed. The two expelled; and to have allowed a simple hon. Members who had spoken last had Resolution of the Legislative Assembly the stated the great point in dispute to be force of law would have been to have given whether or not the colony should be per- that body the entire power of the Legislamitted to exercise a full and efficient control ture. He regretted deeply that the affairs over the public purse. He was most deci- of Lower Canada had come to the present dedly of opinion that it should; but that, pass. Ever since he had had a seat in that in fact, was not the question; and he must House he had taken a great interest in the do the Government of the Duke of Wel- subject; and when he sat on the other side lington the justice to state, that it was not of the House he had, with his right hon. the question even while that Government friend (Mr. Stanley) and Mr. Huskisson, was in existence. That Government and strongly opposed the plan of Sir George the present had fully admitted that right, Murray for retaining a part of the reserved and had acted up to that admission. The revenue as a provision for a Civil-list. He chief point now in dispute was whether or had considered that it was much better for not the salaries of the Judges should be the Crown to concede its rights, than to permanently fixed; in fact, whether or not come into conflict with the Assembly, for the Judges should be independent of the he had then a full conviction that the Assembly, in as far as remuneration was Assembly would permanently provide for concerned. The hon. and learned member the salaries of the municipal and judicial for Dublin had complained that the Roman officers, and he was now extremely sorry to Catholic clergy in Lower Canada were find that expectation had not been realized. hardly dealt by. The hon. and learned With respect to what had passed during Member must have been entirely misin- the last twelve months he could not, of formed. Ever since the conquest the course, pretend to any knowledge, but he utmost care had been taken to prevent the did know that even when he left office the possibility of any such complaint being aspect of affairs was very threatening. In made with justice; and he was quite sure the appointment of the Committee he rethat if the hon. and learned Gentleman joiced, for he hoped and believed that it would inquire fully into the matter he would lead to some plan which would effect would find the real state of the case to be an amicable adjustment of the difficulties. that the Roman Catholic clergy regarded He also hoped that the Members on the the party of Mr. Papineau as far less favour-other side who possessed, unquestionably, able to them than the other. The hon. and learned Member again had completely misconceived the case when he stated that the Government had denied the right of the Legislative Assembly to expel its Members. The fact was the reverse. In the one province, Mr. M'Kenzie, and in the other Mr. Christie, had been expelled, and the Government, however wrong it might have thought the expulsion in each case, did not at all question the right, although it questioned the manner in which

great influence in Lower Canada would exercise that influence rather to soothe than to exasperate.

Mr. Patrick Stewart rejoiced that the subject had been brought forward, for he was convinced that if peace were to be restored in Canada it must be by instituting an inquiry into the complaints. After the great colonial measure of last Session he thought the House might well be bold in colonial improvement. He was also glad of the distinction which had been kept in

Motion withdrawn.

Mr. Secretary Stanley moved for the appointment of a Committee, to inquire how far the grievances complained of by the inhabitants of Lower Canada in 1828 had been redressed.

Committee appointed accordingly.

view between the two provinces. Indeed,, no other source. He begged leave to withwhen he read the notice of Motion as given draw his Motion. by the hon. member for Bath, it excited his astonishment, for although he knew that that hon. Member was connected by descent and residence with Canada he could not conceive how he could make out a case of inquiry as applicable to both provinces. There was but one mode, in his opinion, of remedying the evils now disturbing Lower Canada, and that remedy was a legislative. union between the two provinces. He was convinced that nothing but a restoration of the old bond of union would overcome the difficulties which were now so severely felt. He approved of the conduct of Government with reference to the reserved revenue. The understanding three years ago was, that the Civil-list should be permanently voted; and yet no permanent provision had been made even for the Judges. Inquiry, however, was absolutely necessary for the satisfaction of all parties, and he, therefore, rejoiced to find that a Committee was to be appointed.

Mr. Roebuck contended, that if there had been any breach of good faith it rested with the Government, and not with the House of Assembly. As a proof of the violence that had been offered to the popular feeling, he would only direct the attention of the House to the attempts which had been made by the Legislative Council to nurse an English party into existence in opposition to the French inhabitants, and to the attempts which had been made by the Judges to suppress the use of the French language in the Courts of Law. They did not succeed, indeed, because the people resisted those attempts. Could it be said that nothing had been done to excite the people's jealousy, while unjust distinctions were kept up; and attempts were made to establish a Protestant Church-the greater part of the population being Catholic? How could it be expected that people would contentedly see efforts made to set up a Church for which they were to pay, in which they felt no interest, if they did not entertain towards it a decided hostility? There ought to be no distinction of a religious description-no distinction of classes of the people; and till this was obtained, he hoped that the exertions which had been made to get such distinctions abolished would be continued. Again, he contended that the colony had a complete right to control the expenditure of every farthing of money, for all the revenue of the colony came from their labour and from

COMMUTATION OF TITHES (ENGLAND.)] Lord Althorp rose to bring forward his Motion on the subject of Tithes. The noble Lord observed, that, as he should have to occupy the attention of the House for some time in the explanation of his details, he would not detain them by any prefatory remarks. The question of tithes was, certainly, one of the greatest importance to all connected with the landed interest; and though there might be much difference of opinion as to the actual right to tithe, he thought there could be none as to this,-that, whoever else might have the actual right to tithe, that right did not reside in the present landowners of the that the opinion of the House would be country. He might assume, therefore, the same; and, without going to abstract rights, he might assert, that as long as the Established Church required the aid of tithes, that Church had a claim to them prior to all others. He repeated, whatever opinions might be entertained on the abstract right, there was no one who would maintain that the right belonged to the owners of the soil.-The noble Lord here observed that his right hon. friend (Mr. Secretary Stanley) had just reminded him, that he was proceeding in rather an irregular course; for that the proper mode would be to move the subject in a Committee of the whole House. He had to apologise for his omission in this respect, for which he admitted he could not plead ignorance of the usual forms; but he would state-what was the fact, that he had forgotten it at the moment, owing to the unexpected length to which the previous debate had extended. He would now move the Order of the Day, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the Resolutions of which he had given notice.

The Order of the Day was read, and the House went into Committee.

Lord Althorp then resumed: He was saying, that, whatever opinions might be held as to the abstract right to tithes,

there could, he thought, be no difference | of land; for it was well known that the as to the question, that they did not belong occupiers of land, whose capital was exto the owners of the land. Another posi-pended in the cultivation of the soil, were tion, of the truth of which he was satis-often losers when the tithe was drawn in fied from all the inquiries he had made on kind. An exchange of the mode of payment the subject was, that, in the present state would, therefore, be a great relief to those of the country, the revenues of the classes. In many cases a composition for Established Church in this kingdom were tithe had been entered into; but this was not larger than that establishment required as he had been informed from many for its proper maintenance. There might quarters, not entered into on equal terms be, and no doubt there were, differences of between the parties; for, if the tithe were, opinion as to the mode in which the re- drawn in kind, there was a loss to the venues of the Established Church should occupier, and the amount of composition be applied; but he thought it would be for such tithe was often greater than the admitted, that the amount of those reve- occupier ought, in justice, to be called nues was not greater than the establish- upon to pay. The plan which he was ment called for. As to the policy of a about to propose would give relief to the Church Establishment, he would not enter occupier of the soil, and be of use to the into any argument, for he presumed, that labourer, by giving to the latter more emthe great majority of those whom he then ployment; for it was well known, that, in addressed concurred with him in thinking, most instances, an increased quantity of that an Established Church, as connected labour would be employed on land, if it withthe State ought to exist. He assumed were not for the certainty, that, in proporthat position, therefore, as one which tion to the productiveness of that land, would be admitted by the majority of the there would be more tithe to pay. The comHouse. He had already said, that the mutation of tithe, then, would be an adlandowners had no right to the tithes. vantage, not only to the occupiers of land, They had purchased or inherited their but also to the labourers, who would thes property, subject to the payment of tithe; get increased employment. But when and whether members of the Established he spoke of commutation, he did not mean Church, or Dissenters from it, the same to say, that a full equivalent should be rule applied, that they had purchased or given equal to the full legal right of the inherited the nine-tenths of their property, Church to the tithe. He believed it would the remaining tenth belonging to the be difficult to ascertain that, and imposChurch. They could not, therefore, com-sible to exact it. He would take, as the plain of that tenth going to other hands, basis of commutation, the customary for they had inherited, or made their pur-payment. That, he thought, would chases, subject to that condition. Indeed, be a fair basis for the commutation he believed, that even the Dissenters made for no one now took what was the no complaint on the ground of the tenth. legal right. Many circumstances inIn dealing, then, with this tenth, and increased or diminished the value of the any regulation as to the mode in which it was to be collected, it would be admitted, that, if the Legislature appropriated it in its present shape, they were bound to give a fair equivalent to those from whom the Legislature took the property. He knew it might be said, that if a fair equivalent were given for the tithe, it would be no relief to the occupiers of land. From this opinion he differed, for there was in the mode of collection à source of irritation, which would be got rid of in the plan which he was about to propose. The tithe-payer and the tithe-owner were now frequently brought into unpleasant collision, which might be avoided by a new mode of paying the tithes. This would also be a relief to owners and to occupiers

tithe,-such as the distance from a markettown, the difference of soil, and the expense of cultivation; so that it was a matter of great difficulty to ascertain what was the value of the legal right. The best way, as he had stated to the House last year, was to take the customary value. He must here observe, that he still adhered to the principle of the measure which he had brought forward last year; but, while he adhered to the general principle, he would admit, that some of the details were open to strong objections; for that measure gave an advantage to those who had exacted the full amount of their tithe, in giving them more than was strictly their due, while it would have inflicted an injury on those who had been liberal to

be the same in both cases; and would be
consequently great in proportion to the
less rent, and small in proportion to the
greater rent. If, therefore, they endea-
voured to have the tithe apportioned to
the rent, according to the present amount
of tithe, they would have to give a large
amount of tithe where the rent was low,
and a less where it was high; but it
would be difficult to make any scale of
this kind in an Act of Parliament. In
fact, an attempt to accomplish that would
so complicate the measure as to render it
impossible of execution. He was aware
it might be said, that the effect of the
Bill apparently would be, to give advantage
to the proprietors of the poorer soils; but
he trusted that, when the whole of the
provisions of the Bill were in the hands of
hon. Members, they would not make that
an objection. Before he proceeded
further, it would be necessary for him to
define what arable land meant, and in
what senses he used the words arable and
pasture when he sought to establish a
distinction between them. He should not
consider any land arable unless it had
been broken up at some time within
the preceding five years.
It was
probably known to many hon. Mem-
bers then present, that he had circu-
lated various inquiries on the subject of
tithes, with a view to the present measure;
he was perfectly ready to admit, that he
had no right whatever to make those in-
quiries, but he had circulated them,
knowing that people generally were very
desirous for a commutation of tithes, and
they might therefore be not indisposed to
furnish the information he desired. That
they would furnish such information he
fully expected, and in that expectation be
had not been disappointed. The answers
to his queries bad certainly supplied him.
with a great number of facts, though the
information thus received rather enabled
him to ascertain what he could not do,
than afforded him any assistance in judg-

their tithe-payers. Another objection to the plan of last year was, that it fixed a never-varying standard, according to the present value of the tithes, which was not fair to the owner of the land, when the value of the land altered against him. He thought, therefore, that the principle of a corn-rent should be abandoned. That principle was just while only the change in the value of money was contemplated; but it was not just if the value of the land itself underwent alterations; for these reasons he had determined to abandon both the principles of taking the value of individual parishes, and subjecting the land to a corn-rent in lieu of tithes. The principle which he meant to propose was, that tithe should bear a fixed proportion to the rent of land, that was, that if the rent rose, the tithe should rise; and if the rent fell, the tithe should fall in the same proportion. He meant the real value of land, not the rent paid by the Occupier, which might be open to fraud. He would also propose, that the tithe should be paid by the owner, and not by the occupier of land. He would add, that in few instances only an actual valuation of land would be necessary. The actual rent would, in most cases, be sufficient and satisfactory to both parties. He was aware that some objections would be made to this principle. It was true, also, that rent and tithe did not depend on the same principle; and, therefore, in some instances, the tithe ought not to depend on the rent. There was, also, a distinction to be made between arable and pasture lands. The tithe was considerably higher on the former, in proportion to the value of the land, than on the latter; but he thought there would not be much practical difficulty in arranging that; for they had a guide in a principle adopted in most enclosure bills, in which, when land was given in lieu of tithes, a larger amount was given for arable, and a smaller for grass land. But there was another distinction which presented a greater diffi-ing of what he could. The answers did culty. It was, that where the rent was low, the tithe bore a greater proportion to its amount than where it was high;-that was to say, that where the expense of cultivation was great, and the produce little, the rent, compared to that expense, was necessarily small, while it was necessarily large upon land that yielded more at a less cost. The tithe, however, if the produce were the same in quantity, would

not furnish him with the means of forming any scale for the apportionment of tithe to rent, founded upon the amount of rent actually payable; one fact, however, those answers placed beyond all question was, that the proportions subsisting between rent and tithes were most various, and that any attempt to apply the same rule in all cases could not fail to operate most unequally. The effect of a rule sup

previously existing proportion between them, the whole being calculated on the average of the county at large, and not confined to particular parishes. He could not conceal from himself that the whole of the plan might at first view appear exceedingly complex, but he looked forward with perfect confidence to its eventually allowing great facility of operation. The hon. Gentleman opposite, the member for Essex, when the same subject was under discussion last year, inquired how the tithe of hops was to be regulated? He was prepared, so far as the present plan was concerned, to give an answer to

gardens were to be considered as arable lands, but were to be subject to an additional payment of 10s. an acre. Having made that one remark, he should now proceed with the remaining parts of the proposed measure, requesting the House to bear in mind, that the intended valuation was not to be considered final: on the contrary, he intended to allow an appeal to a barrister appointed for the pur

posed to be generally equitable would in some cases amount, as he had ascertained, to nothing less than an increase upon the existing tithes, equal, perhaps, to twentyfive per cent, while in others it would prove a diminution to that extent. He was, therefore, satisfied, that, it would be impossible to establish one unvarying rule for the whole country. He wished, therefore, to establish different proportions in different districts, and by grouping together those districts which were alike, and separating those which were dissimilar, ascertaining the average proportions in each, the object he had in view would be, he thought, fully accom-that question; and it would be, that hop plished. The course he proposed to adopt was, to fix a different proportion for each of the different counties of England and Wales, and the manner in which that object was sought to be effected he should endeavour to explain as clearly as he could; but he trusted that the House would extend to him no small share on that occasion of the indulgence which he was in the habit of experiencing at their hands, for the question was one of diffi-pose of reconsidering any decision which culty and complication, and, therefore, one which he found it not easy to lay before them as satisfactorily and as plainly as he could have wished. It was intended, under the Bill which he proposed to introduce, that an actual valuation of the land should take place in all the parishes in England and Wales, but that separate valuators should be appointed for each county, the object of such valuations being to ascertain the value of the land, both arable and pasture; at the same time the valuators should ascertain the payment on account of tithes during the last five years. When the land had been valued, and the amount of tithes ascertained (distinguishing the lay impropriations from the tithes payable to ecclesiastical persons), the sums were to be laid before the Court of Quarter Sessions, and by that tribunal the proportion subsisting between the rent and the tithes was to be ascertained, and likewise it would be the duty of the same Court of Quarter Sessions to determine what proportion of the burthen should be borne by arable, and what borne by pasture land, so as to preserve the relative pressure upon each in a condition as little altered as possible from its present state, and at the same time to maintain a proportion between rent and tithes as nearly similar as might be to the

might occasion sufficient dissatisfaction to bring forth an appeal. He had now stated the general principle of his plan of commutation; and he begged to remind the House, that one of the objections to the Bill of last year was obviated by the present plan; for it was alleged against the former measure, that while it would confer an advantage on the harsh and severe collector of tithes, who exacted the uttermost farthing, it would deal unfairly with those whose mode of enforcing their rights was more lenient. Now, with that species of inequality his present measure would entirely do away; for no man would be enabled to derive benefit from the severity of his exactions, inasmuch as the calculations would be made upon whole counties; and thus the enforcement of extreme rights in one quarter would be countervailed by the leniency to be found in others, and equal justice dispensed. He was not insensible to the difficulties likely to arise from moduses and customary payments; but, he trusted, that when the Bill came to be examined, it would be found, that it did not interfere with the present existing rights under moduses. It would not be easy for him then to explain the manner in which that object was attained; but he was persuaded that the Bill would fully accomplish it,