Attorn. Gen. I am not here to make a bargain; but this I will say to him. He hath had so much tenderness and respect, as few men more. He hath had notice of his trial above a fortnight; and, my lord, he hath not been denied counsel.

Love. I could do nothing in order to my Trial, because I have sent for counsel, and they would not come near me, because they were not assigned by this Court; and my studies being another way, and being unskilful in the law, therefore I could do nothing in preparation to my trial. Therefore I pray do not destroy me in a hurry; the more fair the trial is, the more just you will be, and I the more guilty, if it be proved against me.

Attorn. Gen. I appeal to Master Love, whether or no it was not denied to Lilburue; and there is none that hears him, but sees he hath prepared himself, and perused several acts whereupon he is impeached. But these are discourses, my lord, which if he will put too nigh upon the court, that we should dispute, we cannot force words from him.

Love. Mr. Prideaux is pleased to urge Mr. Lilburne, but I have more Matter of Law arising from the Charge than he bad; and have not that trial by way of a jury as he had; and there are many things in the charge said to be done before the act of the 29th of March, 1650, which gives you cognizance only of things done from that time; so that many things there are, in which counsel would advise me: therefore I beseech you deny me not that right and just favour.

Ld. President. You do not breathe the same air and the same breath, for it comes from you both Yea and Nay for you say you are ignorant, and yet will not be informed by any thing that can be said; and so your ignorance is wilful. But in this case I am sure what law soever you can plead, yet there be some acts and matters you have denied.

Love. I have urged Matter of Law arising out of the Charge, from the 29th of March, 1650. There was no Act then, that I know of that did prohibit the sending of letters or messages to or from Scotland, and I am indicted for letters or messages sent to and received from Scotland before that time.

Attorn. Gen. I would fain give you satisfaction: do not cast away yourself. My lord we do use in law to lay it so for the fact, we cannot tell what the proof will be; whether the proof will be within these three months or ten inonths; and it is laid in relation to other offences.

Love. I have here the letters of several Counsellors, and they return me their denial; if I could have got their counsel, I would; and yet if I had it, I could not tell what they should, have advised me in, not having a copy of my Charge.

Ld. President. If you had desired a copy of your Charge, you might have had it. You must know you are before those that have law and conscience, and that are bound to be of

counsel for you, and that is the Court; and it is their duty to see that whatsoever the law of England allows you to have, that that you should have; but you must have it in a due and proper time and manner of law appointed. You are not now for the present where Lilborne was, nor before such a Court; he was before a Commission of Oyer and Terminer, who are to proceed according to those laws, and upon that the Commission directs; and that is by that which the known and fundamental laws of England direct unto. But this is not in all particulars the like; the Jury there hath a large latitude, who proceed by way of Grand Jury and Petty Jury, which are both included in this Court; so that in all things the proceedings upon that are not as upon this. But thus far the proceedings are alike; you have your Charge, and you are to plead to it, for that is the first thing to be done; there is nothing can answer your Charge, but whether you be Guilty or Not Guilty. If you plead Not Guilty, then the Evidence will be called; and if then any matter of law ariseth upon the Evidence, it is the usual course to assign you counsel, and to be counsel for you, and to tell you it is law to have counsel; but for you to demand counsel, and first to have counsel assigned you, it is against that form and legality that the law of England appoints; for till you put yourself upon trial, we cannot allow you counsel to the trial; so that you must plead, and it is our duty to tell you so. And it is the duty of this Court to be as careful, when you bave put yourself upon trial, that all the benefit of the law may be afforded you; therefore you need not fear it; for if any of these things arise, you now fear, upon the Evidence, then will be your time and our time to stand upon this you now do, touching matter of law; but in the mean time, in truth, that which we are to tell you, and which we are bound in justice and conscience to let you know, is this: That you are out of your way; and therefore do not destroy yourself: for if you refuse to plead, there is nothing then but a plain downright Judgment.

Love. In ordinary courts of judicature the Judges do counsel for the prisoner; but you are here judges not only in matter of law, but of matter of fact also; and therefore I cannot advise with you: for should I confess any thing, then it ariseth out of my own mouth, and you wili condemn me upon it. Seeing therefore both lie in you, both matter of law and matter of fact, I beseech you afford me counsel, and let me have a copy of my charge, and solicitors, that they may be here with me in court, and then I shall willingly plead.

Att. Gen. This cannot be done, nor ever was done, to have counsel assigned, until upon, matter of fact something did appear; and for the copy of the Charge, it was never demanded, I think, before; and it is in vain for us to speak if the gentleman do refuse to plead: I shall then press you for justice.

Love. I do not refuse to plead : but yet I

should be guilty of my own blood, should I not plead for that just and necessary means for the preservation of my life: through my ignorance I may run myself into hazard and denger, therefore I beseech you deny me not that just favour.

A Lawyer, a Member of the Court. Mr. Love, you are not prodigal, you say, of your blood; nor are we, I hope, prodigal of your blood; we are to answer for all; therefore I pray let me beg thus much of you: if you plead not guilty to the charge, then there is a proceeding to be by master Attorney, to prove you guilty of it; and if by any evidence that he shall produce, or in any thing that shall fall out from yourself in answer to the evidence, there shall arise matter of law, trust us, I pray you, we do promise you that we will give you the benefit of the law in it; and when there comes matter of law to be decided, which we are persuaded is matter of law, then you shall have counsel assigned you; but there is no Counsel to be allowed till the prisoner desire it, and shew matter of law for which he desires it.

Another Lawyer of the Court. The main thing you stand upon, Mr. Love, is this: that there is no mention made in any act, that this court can take cognizance of sending to, or receiving from Scotland; but therein you are mistaken; for the business of holding correspondency with Scotland, is in express words appointed to be under the jurisdiction of this court; therefore I think you are utterly mistaken in that. Then, Sir, for counsel, if there comes any thing in the world that is legal, and is a fit thing counsel should be heard in, I think I may promise it, we will not make ourselves so far guilty of your blood, as to deny you that justice that belongs to any man; for it is your just right to have it, and we cannot deny it, when a point of law ariseth. And you do not urge matter of law, only you question the jurisdiction of the court, and we must over-rule you in that; for we are not to dispute the power of the court: for if the parliament give us jurisdiction, and by a special act appoints, that the business of holding correspondency with Scotland should be within the cognizance of this court, we must obey, and not dispute.

Love. I suppose, Sir, a man may demur concerning the jurisdiction of a court to one point: as, if he be accused for treason at the Cominon pleas, he may demur to the jurisdiction of that court in that: so, Sir, I apprehend there are some things read against me in the charge, of which this court cannot take cognizance, for that they are said to be done before the act for the constituting of this court came forth; so that I may demur to the jurisdiction of the court in that particular.

Lord President. For you to anticipate your evidence before we come to it, we do not tie you to the charge, but to the proof; and we must apply ourselves to the proof, and not to the charge.

Att. Gen. And for the business of Scotland,

which troubles him much, it is expressed in this very act, that the same offences are to be enquired, tried and judged by the high court of justice, in such manner and form, as other offences are to be tried, in express terms.

Love. But there is no time mentioned; for there are two acts, wherein if the prisoner be not indicted within a year, then the fact shall not be prosecuted. Therefore I must demur to the charge, as not legal in matter of form. There are two acts declaring what offences shall be treason, wherein it is said in those two" acts, that if the party be not indicted within a year, he shall not be indicted at all. Now the indictment that is against me, looks back to things that are pretended to have been done by me in 1648 and 1649; and so according to those two acts I am not to be questioned for them, it being above a year before I was indicted.

Lord President. How is it possible that this comes to be an exception until you hear the evidence? If you hear the evidence, and do find that the witness do speak to this not within the time of the limitation, then is your exception proper; but no counsel can divine what time they can give evidence for.

Love. Sir, I am now to look to the charge of Treason read against me, and not to the evidence; and in the charge I am indicted for those things, for which I apprehend I ought not to be indicted. For according to those two acts, I ought not to have been indicted for things pretended to have been done by me so long ago: and this I apprehend to be matter of law. And for the Witnesses, let them speak to what time they will, yet this I am sure, they cannot prove that I was indicted within a year for those things that are charged upon me to be done in 1648 and 1649, for that were to prove an impossibility: so that it appears to me, I am indicted for those things for which I ought not to be indicted.

Lord President. It may be so; and if so, those things will fall off of themselves; there may be some things true, and some things not true; and the counsel may fail in proof of some of them, and you may clear yourself: yet this cannot be before the pleading. When you come to plead, if the matter be not proved against you, and within the time limited, it will fall off of itself without any words at all; and all this time is lost to all this auditory, and no counsel can give you advice in this.

Love. I still say, I do not refuse to plead, but if you would afford me counsel, I should think my life in a great deal less danger. For I do not know, whether I may not, by the advice of counsel, confess some part of the indictment; whether I may not demur in law upon some part, or a great part of the indictment, which I have done already : as that I am charged for treason for those things that are not within your cognizance or power, as I apprehend, and things done before your acts; and for such things, that if I had done them, I must have been indicted for them

within a year, or else not at all; and these I deem legal exceptions.

A Member of the Court. My lord, he is very ignorant of the law; for the fact inust be put in question before matter of law can arise; for if the fact be one way, then the law falls out that way; if the fact be false, then another way. Now if Mr. Love brings in any of these exceptions for matter of fact upon proof, whether he sent letters into Scotland, or in such a time, whether that be any offence, that will all arise after the matter of fact proves true or false but before that, under favour, none can speak to any thing against an indictment, unless he speak against the jurisdiction of the court. And then for other matters they are saved unto him. And you will, I suppose, admit of counsel in matter of law; but his desire cannnot be granted unto him until he plead, and until the matter of fact be some way determined.

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Love. I beseech you acquaint me then with the meaning of these words in judge Coke's Institutes, The Prisoner at the Bar may have Counsel to overthrow the Indictment.' It must be either to overthrow a part of the indictment, or to help the plea, either to plead Not guilty in part, or to demur in part. Let me hear then, I beseech you, what is the meaning of those words, That the Prisoner at the Bar may have counsel to overthrow the indictment; I cannot overthrow the indictment when I plead; for then witness comes in against me.

Att. Gen. He may overthrow the indictment by the witness; and I believe he is convinced, that the court hath jurisdictior in as full and express terms as law and authority can give them. And for the next, I may say, your lordship and the court did never allow a counsel to pick holes and find faults. But if he object that to you that is just and probable, and that which is dubious and doubtful and fit to be debated in law, assign him counsel. You have heard all his particular exceptions, and given your judgment upon them all. But I hope he doth not here expect to have Lectures of Law read him, and to make him understand them. But as to those particular exceptions that he hath made to you, I think some satisfaction is given, and that every man is satisfied, and that there is no colour of doubt there, for matter of fact, and the times that he insists upon. For the act directing what offences are treason, and not to be arraigned unless they be prosecuted within a year, must tell him, the impeachment is laid from 1648 to 1651. Yet, my lord, I shall make it appear, that the indictment doth look backward to some offences, and forward to others. It is laid first in general: he committed such and such Treasons and Offences in such and such years. And I shall come with the Evidence, and apply them to such times that are within your power, and in which the law makes them offences and this is to be debated then, and not to be once spoken of now. My lord, I

shall begin from 1648, and run on with him, that he hath continued in a treasonable disposition, and in treasonable plottings, to the time he was laid up, and since; and will justify all: and therefore it behoves him to insist upon it. And I will make it appear, that he was one of the first that ever did appear against this Commonwealth in plotting; and he did continue so until the time of his restraint, and after that time.

Love. Sir, you are no Witness; if you be a Witness, come and swear.

Att. Gen. I will use you with all the duty of my place; and if you give me not occasion, I shall not do otherwise.

Love. I shall give you no occasion.

Lord President. This will make all that hear him to think that this is the very best of his case; as we know it is.

Love. Sir, although I do not come here to have the law expounded to me, yet I do come here to have the benefit of the law and if the law allows me this benefit (I being unskilful) that if I can find in the charge matter of law arising, then to have counsel to advise me, and to overthrow the indictment; why should I be denied this benefit? And I do not yet, according to my understanding, see that you afford me the benefit of the law, you not granting me counsel to advise me to overthrow the indictment.

One of the Court. Mr. Love, if it were possible, I desire you might have satisfaction, for this that you desire is very just; and when it comes to its proper time, then you shall have it; but do not, by disorderly demanding of it out of you time, lose the benefit you might have of it, when it comes to your time. That which you stand upon, and call law, is not matter of law; nor can you call it law, till you hear what the fact is. For can any man judge what is matter of law, till he know the matter of fact? as it hath been told you well, that the law ariseth out of the fact; so that if you will anticipate the evidence, and the proof of the fact, by urging this matter of law which you did hear read in the charge, you will do yourself wrong, and you are mistaken in it; for there is no matter of law appears there, for it is barely, Thus you have done.' And if you say this is law, you exclude all the witnesses. Whether you have done it or no, we cannot tell; and if you have done it, whether contrary to law or no, we cannot tell, because we must apply the witness to the acts of parliament that authorize us to sit here. And if we find that the doubt grows upon what the witnesses say, and upon what the law saith, then doth matter of law arise, and then it is time for you to say it appears not by this witness that it is within the act. I do rather speak this, because we do extremely desire you should receive satisfaction; for I would not have any here have any thing put upon him, that may not appear just and according to law; and none can ever say that a man had counsel assigned him before he pleaded here.

Lord President. It is now the sessions at Newgate, and there may be many prisoners; and if every prisoner should take the liberty to plead matter of law, and say, I am no lawyer, let me have counsel assigned me, and I will answer; when should we have any man answer? when would men be executed for robbing, and stealing, and killing?

Lee. That Court is different from this; you here are judges both of law and fact, there the judges are judges of law, and the jury of matter of fact. But, sir, satisfy me in this; if there be any thing in law before pleading to overthrow the indictment, (as I perceived by judge Coke there is, and to which I have received no satisfactory answer) let me have that legal benefit to overthrow the charge. I have said what I can; but if I had counsel here, they could say a hundred times more.

Lord President. You have heard no body but yourself, for whatsoever hath been told you by the Court and your friends about you, hath not been hearkened unto. We have spent thus much time, and people are weak, and if you will plead, do. Read his Charge once again; and I tell you the next is judgment.

The Clerk. Christopher Love, you stand charged on the behalf of the keepers of the Liberties of England, by authority of Parliament, of High Treason, and of other high Crimes and Offences against the Parliament and People of England; this High Court therefore requires you to give a positive and direct answer, whether you are Guilty or Not Guilty of the crimes and treasons laid to your charge. Love. I am not satisfied but that matter of law doth arise from this charge; and I do earnestly press I may have counsel, and then I will plead.

Att. Gen. I do as earnestly press, that you would as positively say, that you cannot allow him counsel till he hath pleaded.

Love. I now see Mr. Attorney's words to be true. When he came to me to the Tower, and examined me, the 16th of this month, he said, That seeing I would not acknowledge, as be called them, my treasons, I was judged peremptory and obstinate. And I remember he said these words to me; Mr. Love, though 'you are too hard for me in the pulpit, yet I will be too hard for you at the bar.' And truly now I find it so; and it is an easy matter for a lawyer, armed with law and power, to be too hard for a poor naked scholar, that hath neither law nor power.

Lord President. Doth this do any good to you? If it were so that you are too hard for him, (for you are too hard for every man in the pulpit) yet you sometimes are so out, and in that you are controulable. If master Attorney be too hard for you here, let him be too hard for you; but it is the Court that are to deal with you here: we will not do it because of his saying, but you must think that the Court will be led by their Evidence, and not by Mr. Attorney.

Love. You gave this favour to master Lilburne, and I do not deny to plead but I am not prodigal of my blood, therefore I crave Counsel.

Lord President. I do not know what to say more to give you satisfaction, than what I have said. You say you do not deny to plead, and yet you do hot plead; you say Mr. Attorney is too strong for you, but you know it is not he, but the evidence may be too strong for you. And do not you think that you have such judges as will let you receive any prejudice? Mr. Love, you are a Minister, I pray shew forth the spirit of a minister of Jesus Christ; carry yourself so, as that you may not either wrong yourself or the Court. I would have you behave yourself without recriminating. You speak of Mr. Attorney, as if he could be too hard for you, as if we were all of his side, be it right or wrong: know that we are men of conscience, and have souls to save as well as you.

Love. The Charge is long, and I never heard of it before, nor knew of it before.

One of the Court. We give you our faith and credit, that if any matter of law ariseth, we will not make ourselves guilty of your blood, but we will allow you counsel: yourself hath read a Book in the Court, that shews the Court cannot allow you counsel till you plead.

Lord President. Did you ever consult with the lieutenant of the Tower? What, will you cast away yourself?

Col. West, (Lieut. of the Tower.) I could, my lord, advise him no more than what I knew, and that was the time of your sitting.

Love. I hope you will not in a hurry spill my blood.

Lieut. of Tower. Since Saturday was sevennight he was not restrained.

Lord President. Your profession goes much in profession; but when it is abused, it is the highest transgression; you would evade things with mental reservations, and say and unsay at the bar, as high as any Jesuit can do.

Love. I will not lie for my life; you may say what you please, and do what you please, I speak before God and this audience.

Lord President. Mr. Love, know that we are here in as sacred a posture as you are in the highest place of your calling; and if we do not know that God is here present, we are the miserablest creatures in the world; and therefore if your office and ours do not make us know that we are in the presence of God and Jesus Christ, it will be but ill for us; and yet you hurry out, that it should be such a terrible thing in you more than in us. You have spoken many words as a shadow in the air, there is nothing material in them, but the strength of your will against the judgment of the Court.

Love. If I do plead to the Charge, I do allow the matter and form of the Charge to be legal. I desire to have counsel to come to my chamber; I do not say, to come to this place, but to have liberty for them to come to my chamber.

Mr. Steele, (Recorder of London.) I did not

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think to have spoken, nor have I usually spoken in this Court, yet I will speak a word out of tenderness to yourself. You have very often insisted upon it, that you should have counsel assigned before you plead, that is it you plead for: truly the course of law is this, That if the prisoner charged at the bar, before he plead shall demand counsel, he must of necessity put in some special plea before the time he can demand counsel. The court doth not inforce you to plead Guilty or Not Guilty to the matter of fact; but they say, of necessity you must plead. If you put in a special plea, and tell them that it is a special plea, and desire counsel upon it, they will consider it but till you can declare what that special plea is, for there is a general plea, and a special plea; the general plea is Not Guilty, the special plea is in some particulars. Now for you to alledge neither the special plea nor the general plea, it is impossible that counsel can be assigned you. And where as you say you are concluded if you plead, and cannot object against the indictment afterwards; no, sir, I tell you in the name of a Christian, and one that knows a little of the law, that all the objections you have against the indictment, the formality of it, and those things you speak of, as that of your fact not being committed in such a time that the act holds out that the high-court hath no relation to try you for Scotland; all these will be saved to you, if they arise upon matter of fact from the evidence. True, if you make an objection against the jurisdiction of the court, that hath no relation either to the special plea, or general plea, it cannot be. It is impossible an objection should be received against the essence of the court, there is none can possibly over-rule that for you but themselves; it is such a thing, that no counsel can be assigned you as to that, because it strikes at the very being of the court. Now therefore I beseech you in the name of a Christian, that you will not do yourself that prejudice; for nature teacheth every man to preserve himself by all just ways and means; and I do believe that in this business you have apprehended it for your preservation, and that you are loth to do any thing that tends to your destruction; but you may satisfy your conscience, in that you have done what you can. And when you have pleaded, and used all the arguments you can, and have heard the Judgment of the court in it, you may satisfy your conscience, that in the words of honest men (unless it be the jurisdiction of the court, though you have tacitly spoken there) you shall have that right and privilege which the law allows you. I confess, I never spake here before, and it is a rule amongst us, that none but the president should speak; and we have done more to you, than to the greatest person that ever spake here, because we think some necessity lies upon us towards you, in regard of your calling and the worth that bath appeared in you, to direct you what you have to do.

Love. Sir, a man may demur touching the jurisdiction of any court, if he can shew any

thing in the Indictment that the Court cannot take cognizance of, which he is charged with; though he do not demur simply as to their ju risdiction in general, yet as to that particular he may demur: as a man may demur in Chancery, when a cause is only triable at the common law.

Lord President. You must know, that he that speaks against the jurisdiction of the court, speaks against the jurisdiction of the parliament of England.

Mr. Steele, (Recorder of London.) Mr. Love, to help your understanding, I did not say that Mr. Love did expressly speak against the power of the court, as if they had no power to try him; but this he seemed to say, That what he hath offered against the jurisdiction of the court, in any thing he is questioned for, if he have not counsel for it before, he cannot have it afterwards. Now if the question you offer be a mixed doubt, for your objection is mixed; for you say, the court hath no power to try the facts whereof you are indicted : now is it possible the court can judge of that, or know there is matter of law ariseth out of it, till the fact appear out of the mouths of the witnesses? It may be the fact will not be proved, then there will be no matter of law arising; if the fact be proved that it was done at such a time, before the act was made, when that appears to them, the court then will strike it off, you shall not need counsel, then we shall not regard it: if upon the fact any other doubt ariseth in relation to Scotland, (for it must be from two witnesses, your doubting being mixed with matter of fact) we shall then be able to judge of it.

Love. Sir, if any crime be laid to my charge, that ought not to be laid, and that this court can take no cognizance of, I should have counsel in it.

Lord President. We have spoken more to you than became us, perchance, and that from tenderness to you; and if nothing can give you satisfaction, but over and over with the same things again, we can but speak our consciences, and leave it to yourself.

Love. I do declare I do submit to the trial, and am willing to do it; but it behoves me to use all just means for the preservation of my life: if you will give me but a day's time to consult with counsel.

Lord President. That is in your learning sufficient to say, you will do it, and yet do not do it; because I say I will submit, therefore I do submit; this is no obedience at all. I know no such logic as this; it is submitting, that must do it; you will submit, but you will not act: pray, Mr. Love, be so charitable as to take us to be Christians.

Love. What prejudice, sir, can it be to this court, being I have not spoken with any lawyer, to give me but a day's time? I will desire

no more.

Att. Gen. I would fain know, why may not the next prisoner say, You have done so in Mr. Love's case?

Love. You have accepted of special pleas,