not taken by him. He contended, that the profits said to have been made by Sir A. B. King had been much over-rated. He never had charged 100 per cent profit. The utmost he had made was 16 per cent. Mr. Serjeant Wilde was of opinion that this was a question of justice; and if so, was it right, in the present state of the country, and the loud call for economy, to grant, by way of indulgence and liberality, so large a sum of money? It was said, that this was a question between the Government and Sir A. B. King. He did not think so; he thought it was a question between the Public and Sir A. B. King; and if it turned out, that he had no claim in law or justice, he never could agree that it was the duty of the House to squander the money of the public, and grant a compensation to an individual who had no claim to it. It had been said, that there was no proof that the grant had been abused; but there was strong presumption, when the matter had come before the House, that the public had suffered loss, which rendered it expedient, on the supposition that the patent was for life, that it should be put an end to. But the Committee had heard the statements of some hon. Members, which they intended to make the foundation of their votes, that most excessive and enormous charges had been made; that there had been such practices, that if his Majesty's Attorney General had been directed to move for a scire facias to repeal the patent, he was convinced, that no Jury would have hesitated to void the patent for abuse. If any public servant, intrusted with supplying goods,supplied money instead of goods, it would be such an abuse of the patent as would warrant its repeal. It was said, that it was well known, that it was a patent during pleasure; if so, and if it was found to be abused, why was it not put an end to? He could not conceive why a compensation should be asked. But to whom was it well known? If to those whose special duty it was to protect the public, why was a Committee of the House not informed? The Committee was allowed to go on under a delusion. If it was well known, it was the duty of the Government not to give a compensation; and it was also their duty, to have placed before the Committee the real state of the interest of the party. It turned out that there had been a bargain made, to give up, for a compensation, what the public had a right to resume. But it was said there had been an arbitration; this was founded on a mistake. It supposed, that the right had been referred to arbitration. But it was not so; the right had been assumed; it was only referred to the arbitrators, to award a compensation for an assumed right. Now the House understood that there was no right; and yet it was called upon to vote what was founded on an assumption of right. He (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) protested against this mode of giving away the public money. What was the pretence for it? It was said, that Sir A. B. King had resigned the patent. He would take it for granted that the bargain was complete, and that Sir A. B. King was ready to resign the patent. Still, before the public money went into the pocket of Sir A. B. King, he wished to know wherefore. Sir A. B. King had no right to stand upon; and as to what had been said about the public having become unwittingly a party, and therefore ought to be bound, he would say, if one farthing had been taken from Sir A. B. King, he had right to call upon the House to make it good; but if he had not lost any thing, and if the bargain had been made through the negligence of those who had not done their utmost to protect the public interests, he could come upon them only in one of two ways: he must either wish to take advantage of the public, or he must say, "I have been under a delusion, and I beg you will pay me for the loss, not of a real right, but of a supposititious right." The real question was, whether Sir A. B. King had so conducted himself as to warrant a claim on the liberality of the House; he had no right, and what ground was there for a benevolence? He (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) and the other Members of the House were there to do justice; and would they do justice by making this grant to a man who had done nothing to deserve it? Mr. Goulburn agreed, that if they acted upon the strict principle of legal justice, Sir A. B. King would have no right; but extreme justice was often the extreme of injury; and it was the practice of Parliament to listen to equitable claims. It had been contended, that the House and the Committee were ignorant of the nature of the patent of the King's stationer in Ireland; but a copy of that patent had been two several times on the Table of the all compensation, on that account, would be a crying act of injustice. House, and had been printed. A person who had held the patent for sixty years, on a grant which had been discussed and renewed at the demise of the Crown, which had been treated by a succession of Governments as a valid patent, did not make an unreasonable claim for compensation for its loss; and it was not extraordinary that the Committee should recommend the purchase of the patent, or that Government should comply with the recommendation. The Committee divided. For the amendment 45; against it 103-- Majority 58. The original Vote agreed to, and the House resumed. 121 HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, July 12, 1831. MINUTES.] Bill. Frauds on Creditors went though a Committee. LORD LIEUTENANTS (IRELAND) EXPLANATION BILL"] Viscount Melbourn moved, that the Report of the Amendments on the Lord Lieutenants of Counties (Ireland) Bill, be brought up. The Earl of Shaftesbury brought up the Report. Viscount Melbourne moved, that it be received. Mr. Hughes Hughes begged to state to the House the reasons why he proposed to vote for the amendment. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) had objected" to the proposed compensation to Sir A. B. King because the patent he had surrendered was held during pleasure: but he wished to inquire, if all the pensions granted during the late reign were not granted during pleasure? They were; and notwithstanding that circumstance, and the fact that most of them were obtained from Royal or Ministerial favour, and not for public services, the noble Lord had himself, at the commencement of the present reign, urged on the House the propriety of continuing the whole of them; contending, although so granted, that they could not be withdrawn. On this account he had listened with astonishment to the noble Lord's speech. He had heard, with equal surprise, the hon. member for Middlesex thank the noble Lord for his opposition to this grant, in the name of the public. He could not pretend to know so much of the opinions of the people in the metropolitan county as his hon. friend; but he believed the public in general, who were most anxious that justice should be done, would not hear with satisfaction the course taken by the Government on this occasion: and if this House wished to afford the most obvious proof of its need of Reform, it had only to sanction the gross act of injustice now attempted. The hon, member for Cricklade had said, that in no Reformed Parliament would the amendment be listened to. If such were his opinion, he would not be a party to the Reform Bill. From the official papers before the House, it appeared Sir A. B. King voluntarily resigned his patent, on the suggestion of receiving an equivalent equal in value to the right vested in him. Now, if such equivalent had been estimated, as though the patent was for life, and not during pleasure, to deny The Marquis of Londonderry said, that in rising to offer himself to their Lordships' notice on this occasion, he laboured under some degree of embarrassment, more particularly as he was afraid, after what had passed yesterday, that the step he was about to take would not be strictly in accordance with the rules of their Lordships' House. He understood the noble and learned Lord opposite, however, to express a wish yesterday evening, and even to signify, that he was rather anxious that he (the Marquis of Londonderry) should take an opportunity of setting himself right with regard to what had occurred on a former evening; and he also understood it to be generally admitted, considering the particular circumstances under which, and the mode in which, he had then been attacked, that it would be only fair to give him an opportunity for making some explanation on the subject. If, nevertheless, he should be unfortunately interrupted in the course of the observations which he should now feel it his duty to submit to their Lordships, by the complaint that he was out of order, he could only say, that during the period that he had been a witness of their Lordships' proceedings, he had upon several occasions seen the same individuals address their Lordships three or four times upon the same question, and on the same night. He trusted, therefore, that if there was any intention to resort to the strict rule of order, it would not be harshly enforced in | tenants should be made, it was very likely his instance, but that in future it would that the persons so appointed would all be strictly applied, not only towards him, profess the same political tenets, and if but towards every other Member of that that should come to pass with a Radical House. Their Lordships would recollect, Chancellor on the Woolsack, he then asthat when, upon a former evening, he was serted, that the Magistracy in that country personally attacked by three noble Lords, might possibly in a short time be of such a and when he ventured to make an ex- description as he, as a loyal subject, and a planation in reply to what had fallen from Magistrate of Ireland, would be extremely them, he was informed that it would be sorry to witness. What then happened? impossible for him to proceed in that ex- Why, the noble and learned Lord oppoplanation then, but that he would have an site immediately rose, and proceeded to opportunity of making it on the bringing deliver himself as if he (the Marquis of up of the Report on the Bill. He stated Londonderry) had made a particular atthat circumstance to show, that it was not tack upon him, and indeed the noble through any fault of his, if the explanation Lord went on in such an animated and which he was now about to offer to their personal strain of argument, that it would Lordships was not strictly in order. He almost seem, that the allusion, though not begged to say also, that he meant to take at all intended for the noble Lord, might that opportunity to again draw the atten- perhaps apply in that quarter, thus verifytion of their Lordships to the subject of ing the ancient French proverb, "Il s'accuse this particular Bill, which went to give qui trop s'excuse." If he had been allowed the Crown more extended power and to give the explanation which he wished patronage in Ireland than any Bill that to give on that occasion, the noble Lord had ever been submitted to their con- would have seen at once, that in making sideration. With respect, in the first in- the allusion in question, he had not him stance, to the observations which had at all in contemplation. He would have seen, that he did not allude to him as the been made by noble Lords opposite on a former evening, against him (the Marquis future "Radical" Chancellor in Ireland, of Londonderry), he must say, when it but to a much greater man than the noble was asserted that there was much ex- Lord ever was or ever would be in that traneous and unnecessary matter in his country. What he meant to say on that speech, that there was much more in the occasion was, that looking to the many reply of the noble Viscount, the Secretary changes which were in progress, he did of State. It was too much to be told by not see why it was not very possible, that we might have, shortly, a Chancellor the noble Secretary, that noble Lords on that (the Ministerial side) might, as he did, O'Connell in Ireland. He asserted, then, gross ignor- that he looked upon such a thing as employ such hard words as ance" and "perverted understandings" extremely probable, and he did think towards individuals on the Opposition side that the noble Lord had no right to take of the House, and that when the indi- such an hypothetical allusion to himself. viduals thus unjustly attacked should en- He could assure the noble and learned deavour to repel such an attack, by re- Lord, that it was never once intended for stating what they had said, they should him, and that at the time when he made it, be arrested in their explanation, as he had another individual altogether was in his eye. been, and prevented from making it by a So far with regard to that misunderstood cry of "Order." He begged to tell noble allusion. He hoped he had now eased the Lords on the opposite side of the House, mind of that noble and learned Lord of Chancellor. that if hard words were to be thus em- the idea of his having been accused of "Radical" Lord ployed towards him, he would return them being a to those who used them four-fold. In But the noble and learned Lord on that the observations which he had made on occasion attacked him (the Marquis of a former evening on the present Bill, and Londonderry), for supposing that his Mawhich had so unaccountably provoked jesty's Government would make such an that attack which he now wished to improper use of the patronage which this answer, he had spoken hypothetically. Bill put into their hands as he had stated, He put certain cases on that occasion, and the noble Lord said, that it was unand he said, that if this Bill should pass, manly, dishonourable, and base to supand the nominations of those Lords Lieu-pose that the Lord Lieutenancies and Vice 66 Lieutenancies would be given only to the | next came the hon. J. Plunkett, Assistant friends and supporters of Ministers. Lord Plunkett-I did not use the word "dishonourable." The Marquis of Londonderry.--Well, the noble and learned Lord had characterized the supposition as a "base and unmanly supposition." Now he thought, that that was rather a hard expression. He could assure the noble Lord, that with every respect personally for the noble Lord, and for those noble Lords opposite with whom he acted, he (the Marquis of Londonderry, could not put such confidence in them, with respect to the purity of their appointments or nominations, as to suppose that they would be entirely devoid of that love of patronage which persons in power seldom failed to exercise when they could. He really thought, that of all persons the present Ministers were least entitled to credit for such extraordinary purity, and considering the short time during which they had been in power, they had made a greater distribution of the patronage which they necessarily possessed amongst their private friends and kinsfolk, than had ever been made by any former Ministers in so limited a period. That statement, he believed, would scarcely be disputed, and he held in his hand a list of fourteen or sixteen places which the noble Earl at the head of the Government had conferred upon his immediate friends and relatives. He would not go into a discussion of that matter then, as the noble Earl had never made a personal attack upon him, and as he entertained a private respect and regard for the noble Earl: he would only say, that there was the list of the places which the noble Earl had given to his friends and relatives. With regard, however, to the noble and learned Lord, he must say, that when that noble and learned Lord talked of the impossibility of Government giving away the offices which would be created by this Bill, through any but the purest motives, and in any but the purest manner, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) could not avoid referring to the quantity of patronage which had been engrossed by that noble and learned Lord's family and friends. He would briefly state the result of the information which he had received on that subject. First of all, there was the noble and learned Lord's son, the hon. and rev. Mr. Plunkett, holding a valuable living near Bray, and a Government patent-office in lieu of another living near Drogheda; Barrister for the county of Meath, and Crown Prosecutor, the emoluments of which amounted to about 1,000l. a-ycar. Then there was the hon. David Plunkett, who was Prothonotary of the Court of Common Pleas, and Registrar also of the said Court; next came the hon. Patrick Plunkett, who was Counsel to the Excise, and Crown Prosecutor for Leinster, and twin brother, as it were, to the gentleman holding the office of Crown prosecutor for Meath; there was also a brother-in-law with 4,000l. a-year, and another Plunkett with a lucrative place, but he believed that gentleman was no relation of the Lord Chancellor's. There were several other Plunketts on the list, with which, however, he would not trouble their Lordships, as they might not be relatives of the Lord Chancellor, nor owe their appointments to him. Now, when he saw appointments of this kind, which, he dared say were very proper appointments, since the noble and learned Lord had praised his family very highly in that House, especially for their conduct during the late elections,-when, he said, he saw appointments of this kind, he could not have much faith in the purity of the dispensation of the patronage under this Bill. As the noble and learned Lord's family engrossed so many good things now, the noble and learned Lord might think they were deserving of some more as soon as there were more to be given away. The noble and learned Lord had afterwards stated, that he did not know whether he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was a Whig or a Tory. He was sorry to think, that any one could have any doubt upon this subject, could have any doubt that he had never done any thing which should cause him to be suspected of being a Whig. With one exception, he had always supported Tory Governments. He lamented the necessity of that exception, but when he saw a Tory Government departing from those sound principles in which he had been brought up, he thought that it was his duty to oppose it. If the same Government were to come in again, and act in the same manner, especially with regard to foreign policy, as in the case of Greece, he should again oppose that Government. With the single exception, and he challenged the noble Lord to find another, of his unfortunate position with regard to a Tory Government, at the head of which had been a noble Duke, whom he must ever regard as the greatest man in the country, his whole political career had been such as ought to have left no doubt upon the mind of the noble and learned Lord, or on the mind of any man, whether he was a Whig or a Tory. If the noble Lord had any doubts, he might have immediately relieved them by consulting the noble Earl near him, the First Lord of the Treasury, or by consulting the noble Lord who held the office of Privy Seal; for those noble Lords he entertained the highest respect, and he was sure that they would have informed the noble Lord, that he never had, in the whole course of his political life, departed from the principles, the Tory principles, in which he had been brought up. And really, when he saw accusations like these coming from one who had been the intimate friend of Castlereagh, the extoller of Canning, and now the colleague of Greyfrom one who had travelled to each of these Administrations, though the principles of them were "wide as the Poles asunder" when he saw such an individual attacking him, and declaring that it was impossible to tell whether he was a Whig or a Tory, he did think it a little hard to remain silent under such an attack from such a quarter, and could not help giving utterance to his feelings. He hoped, that his humble political career had been straight-forward at least, but the noble and learned Lord's career put him in mind of all the ages-the golden age, and the silver age, and the iron age, though which age now ruled the world, he would, for fear of still further vexing the noble Lord, hardly venture to affirm. Next the noble and learned Lord had been pleased to state something about his (the Marquis of Londonderry) being custos rotulorum of Down and Derry; but he should have stated the particular circumstances under which he held these appointments. The fact was, that in the county of Londonderry, the greater part of the estates were held under the London Companies, and there were few or no great resident proprietors in the county, and it was therefore found very difficult to get persons qualified to fill high and important places. He had represented the county for twelve years, and though his family estates and his place of residence were in the neighbouring county of Down, yet he had been appointed custos rotulorum of Derry, at the recommendation of the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. His situation in the county of Down was very different he had succeeded to it after an individual whom the noble and learned Lord had once respected,-an individual who had received honours from his Sovereign, and this part of those honours his Majesty had been graciously pleased to extend to him (the Marquis of Londonderry) as his successor. In holding this situation, of the highest possible honour, as Down was the first county in Ireland, he felt that it conferred on him very great honour; depriving him of it, which he knew would be one of the effects of this Bill, would be taking from him what he considered to be one of the greatest honours he was possessed of, particularly as it was bestowed on him at the decease of his lamented brother. He felt, that he was the highest individual in the county: he spent much of his time there, and the county had, on many occasions, and particularly lately, displayed much respect and attachment to his family. He had felt it his duty to state thus much, and to state it openly, for, humble as his services had been, they were at least zealous, and he did feel most acutely, when he found, that one effect of the present Bill would be to place a Lord-lieutenant of the county over his head. As to the Bill itself, he thought it neither more nor less than a Bill which gave to the Government the appointment of thirty-two new Lords-lieutenant, these new Lords having the power of appointing Vice-lieutenants to the amount of about eighty. If the Government chose to exercise the powers of the Bill, they would have patronage to this extent, and he was placed in such a situation, that though he might be allowed to enjoy the title of Custos Rotulorum, his services might be entirely dispensed with, and he might be deprived of all the influence and honour which that office bestowed on him. He regretted, that the noble Duke (Wellington) when he suggested some amendments to the Bill, did not look a little closer at its probable effects, and if he had, he was sure the noble Duke would not have given it his support. The Bill would give the Ministers who carried its provisions into execution a great power over the elections in Ireland, which was not at all desirable for the independence of the gentlemen of that country. This being the case, he protested, and should to the last protest, |