their creditors; and it would be very hard, on such persons to render them subject to the Bankrupt-laws. This measure would be of very little use to creditors, for in most cases the whole property of these unfortunate debtors would be wasted upon lawyers and members of the Bankruptcy Court. The measure would be a "Slough of Despond" for the debtors, without any benefit to the creditors. The Bill, indeed, had a flattering title, which reminded him of the title to a Bill passed in the time of Henry 7th, the real object of which was, to support the malversations of Empson and Dudley. He could compare the measure in respect of its consequences, to nothing except the Cholera Morbus and death, from which there was neither escape nor relief, and expressed his hope that the noble and learned Lord would at least delay the Third Reading until the Lord Chancellor should have brought in his Bankruptcy Bills. If the noble and learned Lord would not abandon the measure altogether, he hoped that he would at least alter it, and allow the debtors a longer time to compound with their credi tors. had not looked into the Bill before. He did not mean to say, that the House should be influenced by any opinion but its own ; but he thought his noble friend would have more confidence in the Bill when he was informed, that the noble and learned Lord who occupied the Woolsack, but who, he regretted, was absent to-day, had no objection to it. The Bill would not apply to the persons now abroad, till after a period of twelve months. Lord Plunkett.-Yes, out of Europe. Lord Wynford.-Yes, there was twelve months time for those who were out of Europe; and the Bill did not apply to those who were abroad, unless it could be proved to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Bankrupt, or of the Lord Chancellor, or of a Jury, that they remained abroad for the purpose of avoiding their debts. If a merchant remained abroad to delay his creditors for a single hour, he became subject to the Bankrupt-law, and he could see no hardship in placing on the same footing with a merchant-one of the most useful and respectable characters in the community-men, who evidently went away for the purpose of defrauding their creditors, and of spending the money Session of Parliament, a Bill was presented by him of a still stronger character, by which the process of outlawry, which, as the law now stood, could be got rid of by a person returning to the country, was fastened upon the debtor. By that Bill, too, the debtor declared a bankrupt was compelled to give up the whole of his property, by this Bill he was allowed to retain a part of it. He had, however, no personal object in view, and he only sought to be of advantage to the public; and if the noble and learned Lord, whose opinions he so much respected, or, indeed, if any noble Lord desired to have the third reading of the Bill delayed, he cheerfully acceded to that request. He would, therefore, move that the third reading of the Bill be postponed to that day week.-Bill postponed. Lord Plunkett apologized to the noble and learned Lord for his attention not hav-which belonged to others. In the last ing been called earlier to the Bill, and he begged now to state one objection, which appeared to him worthy of notice. He alluded to that part of the Bill which related to persons abroad; and a clause in the Bill said, that the person who was now abroad, and who should remain abroad, with intent to defraud his creditors, after notice being left at his last place of abode, should be subject to the Bankrupt-laws, unless he compounded with his creditors within the space of three months. This was rather a hard clause, particularly with regard to those who were abroad, and who had not gone there with the intention of defrauding their creditors. He thought it was hard, without some more consideration, to enact against them that they should forfeit all their property, whether real or personal. He, therefore, suggested that it would be only proper to delay the Bill for a few days, in order to give time for these clauses being thoroughly considered, and he hoped the noble and learned Lord would excuse him if he moved an Amendment to that effect. Lord Wynford said, he would gladly comply with the request of his noble and learned friend, but he regretted, that he HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] Returns ordered. On the Motion of Sir ROBERT FERGUSON, of all Monies received by the Commissioners of Stamps, on Marine Insurances for 1830; and for Accounts of Money advanced out of the Consoli dated Fund, for the use of the Irish Loan Commissioners, with all the particulars of Interest, Repayments, &c. :—On the Motion of Lord KILLERN, of all Money expended on Irish Roads for the last seven years:-On the Motion of allowed to vote. He considered the clause &c. of Surrey, for Compensation for Loss of Office; and from Samuel Fletcher, for an inquiry into the Distress in Ireland. By Lord KILLEEN, from Hamilton Gorges, Esq., for the Extension of the Elective Franchise to Irish Copyholders; from the Roman Catholic Clergy of the Diocese of Derry, and Catholic Inhabitants of Charleville, against any further Grant to the Kildare Street Society; from Protestant Inhabitants of Caudroun to extend the Elective Franchise to Catholics. By Mr. LUMLEY, from Grand Jury of Galway, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. By Sir GEORGE WARRENDER, from Town Council Inhabitants of Arnold (Notts); and by Mr. LAMBERT, from most inquisitorial, for the Legislature had Mr. Ewart wished to take that opportunity of correcting a statement made by the hon. member for Ipswich, who had declared, that the Committees of Lord Sandon and Mr. Thornly had been treatof Jedburgh, to allow the present Electors in Scotland ing the voters in public houses preparato retain the Elective Franchise. By Mr. LAMBERT, from Protestant Inhabitants of Chaddagh, to extend the Elective tory to the election for Liverpool. He Franchise to Catholics; and from the Parishes of Kilcon-had received communications from the nee and Aughrim, against any further Grant to the Kildare Chairman of both Committees, affirming that there were no grounds whatever for the statement. He therefore trusted, if the state of the present Combination Laws; and from the hon. Member should find he was in error, Managers of the Prescot Savings Bank, for an alteration of that he would candidly acknowledge it. Street Society. By Lord STANLEY, from Millers and County of Sussex, against the Importation of Flour; from the Act 9 George 4th. Cap. 92. By Mr. FITZGIBBON, from Teigntuage Agricultural Association, against the division of Counties in the Reform Bill, and for the Repeal of the Union with Ireland; from Inhabitants of Newcastle (Limerick), and from Abington. By Mr. SPRING RICE, from Protestants of Roscommon, for the extension of the Galway Franchise. By Sir EDWARD SCOTT, from G. H. Right of Voting. By Mr. WILKS, from the Protestant HUNT, from Great and Little Bolton, for the Repeal of Repeal of the Beer Act. By Mr. JOHN WOOD, from under-Line, to be placed on the same level, with regard to LOWTHER and Mr. JOHN WOOD, from Owners and Occu piers of Land at Kentmere and Hagill, Skelsmergh, and Repeal of the Duty on Marine Insurances. habitants of Whitehaven, and Preston Quarter, to return Mr. Rigby Wason said, that the communications received by the hon. Member was entitled to every respect, but he must still persist in stating, that publichouses had been opened for the purpose mentioned. He had never charged the Committee with doing this, but surely it might be done without their knowledge. Had not the hon. Member himself, a month after his return, declared on a petition being presented against it, that he was perfectly ignorant of what was notorious to every other person; and if the machinery of that extensive system of bribery and corruption could be so contrived as to keep the hon. candidate himself from the knowledge of it, surely treating might be so carried on, as that a Committee might have no knowledge of the fact. The way it was done was-a one Member to Parliament. By Mr. MARSHALL, from person took a freeman to a publicResident Householders of Beverley, Borough, without house, the landlord of which said to the the limits, to Vote for the Return of Members. By visitor, "What do you think of Lord Sandon, will he represent the town properly?" If the voter replied yes," he received drink, but at the same time was told the treat did not come from the candidate. He would offer the hon. Member a test by which he might try the REFORM-BRIBERY AT LIVERPOOL accuracy of the statement. He was ready TEN POUND CLAUSE.] Mr. Hunt pre-to call witnesses, and prove this assertion sented a Petition from Mary-le-bone, a at the Bar of the House. parish which, he said, formerly was for Mr. Denison had also been desired "the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing to contradict the statement of the hon. but the Bill," but now prayed against Member. There was a distinction between the clauses in the Reform Bill, respect-public-houses being open for the receping quarterly payments of rent, and the voters being called on to produce a certificate of payment of house-rent before being VOL. IV. Third Colonel LowTHER, from Inhabitant Householders of Preston Quarter, to enjoy the same privileges as Whitehaven. By Mr. MARSHALL, from Soap Makers of Glasgow and Leith, for the Repeal of the Soap Duty; and for the Abolition of Slavery, from the Methodists of Keighley, and Baptists of Paisley. By Mr. JOHN WOOD, from Chorley, in favour of Annual Parliaments, Universal Suffrage, and Vote by Ballot. 66 tion of voters, and the act of treating. He could add his testimony to the respectability of the Chairmen of the Committees 2 S It was customary for the supporters of the respective candidates to meet at public-houses while the canvass was going on; and this took place without any blame being attached to the candidates; and without its affording any ground for an accusation of bribery and treating. Mr. Rigby Wason said, the word bribery had not been used by him, but by the hon. member for Staffordshire, and he had then protested against it. Mr. J. Wood had received a communication from one of the Chairmen, also denying the charge. His motives with respect to the vote he had given on the Liverpool election had been misunderstood. He was desirous not to sanction any proceeding which would have the effect of interrupting the general question of Reform. Respecting the charge brought against the electors of Liverpool, he could only say, that he should have been better pleased to see Peers of Parliament, who interfered in elections, brought before the House, than these 800 electors of Liverpool, who, as had been said, went to the poll with halters about their necks. Four out of the five years he had been in the House, was occupied with a disgusting squabble about East Retford. After the Reform Bill was disposed of, he should make no objection to disfranchise the freemen of Liverpool. Petition to be printed. Mr. J. Wood presented a Petition from the members of the Manchester Political Union, against the clause in the Reform Bill which has reference to paying rent quarterly; but the petition being signed by the Chairman only, it could be received merely as his petition. It had been in his hand's several days, but he had been unable to find an opportunity of presenting it, and he was glad to say, that in the interval the object of the petitioners had been obtained, by his Majesty's Ministers having determined that the period at which rent was paid should not form part of the consideration for determining the vote. Mr. Hunt hoped the hon. Gentleman spoke from authority, and was correct, for he had been refused an answer when he had asked a question on the subject. Mr. John Campbell hoped the member for Preston, who first addressed the House, did not speak from the authority of Government. He should see with great alarm such a mischievous extension of the franchise as would admit other than bona fide yearly tenants to its enjoyment. The payment of the rent quarterly should be taken as prima facie evidence that it was a real yearly tenancy, but if the more frequent payment of the month or week were taken, the tenancy was not a bona fide yearly one, for, if such payers were admitted, the House might as well admit a lodger in a night cellar at twopence per night to vote. Mr. Hunt said, the electors of Liverpool had been guilty of the grossest bribery and corruption, and were ready to return to their former practices. He hoped the hon. member for Wiltshire Mr. O'Connell said, a yearly holding would persevere, for if these persons were might be paid for weekly, although such a not punished it would be the grossest in-payment could not be prima facie evidence justice to disfranchise those boroughs classed in schedules A and B. Mr. Ewart said, the documents he had received were signed by most respectable individuals. Sir J. Newport rose to order. This discussion was totally irregular. A petition had been presented from Mary-lebone, and hon. Members had got into a discussion about the corruption of the electors of Liverpool. The Speaker said, the discussion was certainly irrelevant to the subject, but such practices had gradually grown into use; and he was not disposed to put a stop to them all at once, however desirable it might be for the despatch of business, that hon. Members should adhere to the question .before the House of the holding. His understanding of the declaration of Ministers was, that where the tenure was bona fide for the year, it was immaterial how the rent was paid. Mr. John Campbell did not deny, that in point of law there might be a yearly lease, receiving the rent monthly, weekly, or even hourly, but in practice there was no such lease, and when the rent was not received quarterly, in practice it was not a bona fide lease. Mr. John Wood was anxious to set himself right. He had not spoken from any authority, nor did he wish it to be understood, that he had had any particular communication with Ministers. He had merely stated his own impression of what had fallen from them. Mr. Paget said, the hon. member for Oxford had given notice of a motion on | taken as to the nature and objects of the the subject, but had withdrawn it upon Society, They had believed that they the understanding now mentioned, that could not conscientiously agree with the when the tenancy was a bona fide holding system of education pursued by it, but for a year, the tenant should be allowed this objection they had discovered was illto vote, no matter at what period he paid founded, as there was nothing contrary his rent. to their religious tenets in the mode of education followed by the Society. He gave his cordial support to the prayer of the petition. Mr. Hunt was glad he had produced this discussion by his remark, but as it would be impossible to find any other than quarterly reservations of rent through the country, what became of the accident by which the obnoxious clause was two or three times repeated in the Bill? It was improper, perhaps, to impute motives, but he could not exactly understand the conduct of Ministers. Petition laid on the Table. PETI KILDARE STREET SOCIETY TIONS.] Sir R. Bateson presented a Petition from a numerous and respectable body of his constituents, in favour of the Kildare Street Society, against which several petitions had been presented, but which was a Society eminently conducive to the welfare of Ireland. He had several other petitions of the same nature to present, but had been unable to find an opportunity of doing so, from the great pressure of business. The petitioners urged as a proof of the great benefit of the Kildare Street Society, that it now had established 16,000 schools, with 132,000 scholars, a large proportion of whom were Roman Catholics. It had also furnished 2,184 teachers, trained in a most excellent manner. The petition went on to state, that people were tranquil or violent, virtuous or vicious, in proportion as they were imbued with the principles of Christianity, which it was the great object of this Society to inculcate. It was signed by persons of various religious persuasions. He cordially concurred with their statements, and begged to move, that the petition be brought up. Mr. Theobald Jones wished to add his testimony to the great respectability of the petitioners, and to the benefit, derived from the institution, The hon. member for Kerry, who had repeatedly exclaimed against this Society, had said there would be no objection to money being granted, if it were not given to an exclusively religious body. For four years the Roman Catholics had not availed themselves of the benefits afforded; but he had now letters from various persons of that persuasion, stating that they had been mis Mr. O'Connell thought, that the gentlemen of this Society must be of a nature rather extraordinary, as they professed to know the doctrines of Catholics better than their Bishops and Clergy. had subscribed to the Society, being misled by its prospectus, which promised equal favour to all religious persuasions. This was, however, a false pretence, and this Society had misled many by such pretences. If the Society was good for Protestants, let them support it, but let the same liberty be allowed to Catholics, and if they acted under the influence of prejudice or error, let them alone so long as they did not attempt to force their doctrines upon others. The objections urged against Catholics were, that they would not read the Bible without note or comment, or have it made a school-book. One part of this had been answered by the Protestant Bishops themselves, and there he would leave it. When that Society was so useful, it was extraordinary that only one petition had been presented in its favour. The Catholics wished to bring up their children themselves; they did not desire to be interfered with, or interfere with others. There was a great deal of fine writing in the petition, but notwithstanding that he hoped the Society would be put an end to. All he asked was, and he expected it from the present Government, that any grant for the purpose of education should be fairly distributed; Protestants, Dissenters, Presbyterians and Catholics, all to have their share, and dispose of it according to their own modes. Mr. North said, the particular point objected to by the hon. and learned Member, who had described himself as having been a subscriber to the Society, and to have withdrawn from it on being deceived by its prospectus, had always been mentioned in its printed Regulations. The hon. and learned member for Kerry must have been very remiss not to have known that the regulations of the Society prescribed the use of the Bible, without note or comment, as a school-book. This was printed in the regulations, which the hon. Member might have had if he had chosen. Mr. James E. Gordon, as one thoroughly acquainted with that Society, rose to say, there had been no deviation from its established rules since they were first drawn up. He must also say, there was a great discrepancy between the opinion of the hon. and learned member for Kerry, and the opinion of those most competent to form a deliberate opinion, for the Commissioners of Inquiry had returned, that there were sixty-seven of the society's schools under the superintendance of Roman Catholic Priests, who must be as good judges of orthodoxy as the hon. Member himself. He had no wish to discuss the matter at present, but could not allow the hon. Member's statement to go forth uncontradicted. Mr. Hume advocated the course pointed out by the hon. member for Kerry; for if any money was to be given, nothing could be fairer than that part should be given to the Catholics and part to the Protestants, allowing each class to educate their children as they liked but to him it was a wonder that the present system was continued, when out of 8,000,000, 6,000,000 of them were Catholics. Why, therefore, should not something like a proportional distribution of money take place? If this manner of treating the subject had not been felt as a grievance, what had caused the great body of petitions to be presented, complaining of the proceedings of the Kildare Street Society? He must pronounce this Society to be a remnant of the barbarous laws lately repealed, and no system so illiberal should be kept up. He thought his hon. friend, the member for Kerry, too passive in not more strongly opposing the Grant. There might be hundreds of schools under the charge of Catholic Priests, but that had nothing to do with the subject, for until the public money, granted for the purpose of education, should be fairly distributed, complaints would be constantly before them. Colonel Torrens said, that as education was properly looked to, as one of the great objects of society care should be taken that its diffusion should be as general as possible and he considered it most unfair to tax Catholics for the support of a system of education they disliked. Nothing, however, could be fairer than that each sect should exclusively deal with the religious education of its own people. Colonel Conolly was a member of the Kildare Street Society, whose system of education was admirably calculated to bring up the young of all classes in the bonds of amity and Christian love. In the Model Schools at Celbridge the pupils received the elements of scriptural education, there was no doctrine propagated nor book used by the Society which could arouse party feelings. He had seen the advantages derived from the care of the society on his own estate, where there were more than 1,000 persons, who had been educated by it. The system substituted good and discriminating education, for the bad customs that had previously prevailed. He must also declare, that the object of the Society had been, to inculcate the best and highest principles; and the system it followed was altogether fitted to make men good Christians and good subjects. It was the greatest political engine that had yet been introduced into Ireland. Its character and its proceedings were both guaranteed by the high and distinguished men who constituted the Society. It numbered among its members men of the highest character and the most eminent talents, and men of as liberal views and great virtue as any in the empire. Mr. Spring Rice had been the chairman of the Select Committee on the subject of Irish Education, and could not let the occasion pass without one or two observations, although he wished that this matter should not be entered upon until the question of education came, as it soon would, fully before the House. The Kildare Street Society was made a kind of political and religious engine, and he disapproved of either politics or religion being made to interfere with the great work of instruction; and as both were allowed a place in the system of this body, he, on that account, had strong objections to it. When the hon. Gentleman asserted, that the system had worked well, he said nothing about the opinions of the Education Commissioners or of the Select Committee of the House of Commons. He admitted that the Society had published good books, and had diminished the circulation of others of an opposite tendency, and as far as the model schools went, the system was excellent; but it was altogether a different question, whether the society worked well on the disposition of the people. If it pro |