performed to the country. This was the first occasion on which he had been asked to vote money for pensions, and he would not consent to it. He would cordially support the amendment of the hon. member for Worcester.

Mr. George Robinson said, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had argued that they were precluded from the course he proposed to take, because the pensions had been recognised by a former vote. He did not, however, think they were bound by what took place in a previous Parliament. The noble Lord had now repeated the language he had then used, namely, that these pensions had been granted for the King to dispose of according to his pleasure, and had no reference to the public services of the receivers. That might be the theory, but did they not know, that in practice they were disposed of by the Minister of the day, to suit his purposes? If they agreed now to pay these pensions up to the 5th of July, the chances were, that they would be hereafter told that such a grant prevented them from referring the future payments to a Committee. He begged to withdraw his first amendment, and in its place to substitute another, to the effect, that the vote proposed should be reduced by 56,000l. and the grant would then stand 184,000l.

Mr. Hodges hoped, that the hon. Member would not divide the Committee on the present occasion; but he wished it to be understood, that he would support a motion for referring all pensions to the consideration of a Select Committee.

Mr. Strickland said, that a very strong feeling prevailed throughout the country with respect to pensions. The people would rather give millions to reward services performed than 107. to persons who were entitled to no remuneration. As, however, it appeared that some of the pensions were due, he would support the original motion, on the distinct understanding that the Government would not object to refer the subject to the consideration of a Select Committee.

Mr. Courtenay said, a Committee, soon after the accession of the present Ministers to office, decided in favour of these pensions, and although the House had not, by a distinct vote, yet approved of them, yet it had more solemnly sanctioned them by introducing the greater part of them into the Civil List Act. If the subject was to be again discussed, he should object to

refer them to a Select Committee: he should therefore oppose any motion made one. It had been stated that some of these pensions ought never to have been granted, but it was not fair to extend that observation to all. He believed that no pension, during the last thirty or forty years had been granted from corrupt motives in respect to parliamentary influence.

Mr. Hume thought it would be doing an act of injustice to the people to divide the Committee on the question. The grant proposed was of a temporary nature, and would not preclude Members from voting to refer all pensions to a Select Committee. It would be unjust and unwise to argue such an interesting subject without notice. He meant to take an opportunity of bringing it regularly forward, and should then be glad to hear all the objections that could be made to the appointment of a Select Committee. He should be sorry to act oppressively towards any individual, and if he were convinced, that his motion would have that effect, he would not urge it forward. They had been told by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, that they were precluded from this course by the alphabetical arrangement that had taken place; but he was no party to such an engagement. His object was, to inquire into the half of these pensions, and get rid of those not granted for public services.

Mr. Jephson said, the parties who had hitherto received these pensions would have little cause to complain that they had been continued until July, when they ought to have been stopped at the beginning of the year. He saw no objection, to refer them to a Select Committee.

Lord Althorp said, that no Member who should vote for the grant would be precluded from voting hereafter that the pensions should be brought under the consideration of a Select Committee; but at the same time it must be distinctly understood, that he did not give any pledge that Government would support that proposition. The hon. member for Middlesex had said, that he was not a party to the alphabetical arrangement; that might be, but he believed the hon. Member was in the House when he (Lord Althorp) had proposed this, and expressly stated it to the House.

Mr. Hume said, the noble Lord had intimated that the plan might be alphabetically arranged, but if he had known it had been so decided, he should have asked for a return of the pensions on the new list.

composed of, with the single exception of | Admiral Rodney: 58,000l. per annum of the public money was disgracefully squandered away under the head of Irish pensions. He believed the present House of Commons would not vote away one shilling of the public money without receiving services for it.

Lord Althorp was quite confident he had stated the arrangement, and it might be satisfactory to his hon. friend to know, that it came to the middle of the letter H. Mr. Hunt said, the members for Yorkshire, Kent, and Middlesex, declared they did not approve of these pensions, and wished to refer them to a Committee, yet they voted for them, although the noble Lord had positively declared, that it was his intention these pensions should neither be reduced nor examined. Did these Gentlemen expect these pensions, therefore, would be ever brought before a Committee? No, certainly not, there was no chance of it so long as the present Government continued, and Gentlemen did not oppose its proceedings from fear of the Reform Bill being delayed. He thought it would be more delicate to the ladies to refer their claims to a Select Committee. They had been told these pensions were granted as favours by the late Sovereign, but it turned out they were Ministerial favours. There was no doubt the late Chancellor of the Exchequer would vote for them; there was no such grant but what he had agreed to. For his part, he would oppose them to the utmost of his power.

Mr. Strickland wished these pensions to be referred to a Committee, but reluctantly felt himself obliged to vote against the amendment, for fear injustice might be done to individuals.

Mr. Courtenay wished, if any charge was made against the propriety of granting any one of these pensions, it might be brought forward, and openly discussed in the House.

Mr. Baring Wall would feel himself bound to vote for the amendment, should the hon. Member press it to a division; at the same time he should prefer his withdrawing it for the present. He had never heard of the alphabetical arrangement nor the division founded upon it. There were no documents on the Table to apprize them of the fact, and if an examination were to be undertaken, it should certainly extend to the whole of the pensions. Sir John Bourke was prepared to vote for the payment of the pensions, but if a motion was hereafter made to refer them to a Committee, he should support it.

Mr. O'Connell was one who would wil lingly vote for every pension founded on a claim of public service, while he would rigidly cut down such aristocracy-pauper allowances as the Irish pension-list was

Mr. Serjeant Wilde, though pledged to economy, felt himself bound, in humanity and justice, not to vote against the present grant, so far as its by-gone application was concerned. He did not, therefore, feel himself fettered as to an inquiry into the expediency of refusing the vote in future. Up to the present hour the faith of the Legislature was in a manner pledged to those pensioners, who, in reliance on that faith, had contracted engagements and debts which could only be discharged by the present grant, but this, he repeated, left them quite free so far as the question of a continuance of these pensions was concerned. He should like to know from the noble Lord, who unfortunately was seldom audible even to those behind him, whence he derived the 75,000l. which was to meet the present vote?—that is, he wished to know whether it was from the sum placed at the disposal of the Crown, or otherwise?

His

Lord Althorp regretted, that he had not been as audible as he could have wished, and felt thankful to the hon. Member for the hint to raise his voice in future. explanation, in answer to the hon. Member's question, would, he trusted, be found satisfactory. It might be recollected, that under Mr. Burke's celebrated Act, a sum of money was placed at the disposal of the Crown, for defraying the charge of pensions on the Civil List; and this was the sum he had alluded to in his statement. That sum had been reduced to 140,000Z. for the Civil List Pensions of the three kingdoms; and to that amount his late Majesty had enjoyed the right of granting pensions. In point of law, these grants could only hold good during the lifetime of the granting monarch, and therefore legally expired with his demise. though this was legally the case, yet, practically, at least during the reigns of George 3rd, and 4th, the pensions on the Civil List were, by a tacit consent, admitted to be during the life of the pensioner, instead of the life of the King who granted the pension; and such was the state of these pensions on his accession to office. On that occasion he found that, unless he

But

Mr. Hume was surprised they could want even such a sum as that for secret services. In a time of peace, they ought to act above-board, and with clean hands. Mr. Spring Rice said, the vote was on account of public services, and the hon. Gentleman was in error if he supposed they wanted to do any clandestine act. Mr. Hume did not believe any gentleman applied the money to his own use.

Mr. C. W. Wynn thought, sufficient confidence ought to be placed in those who had the disposal of this money, to remove any suspicion of its being applied improperly.

Mr. Hunt could not possibly understand what occasion there was to vote this money. He could not comprehend, if people acted fairly, what they could want with it.

Mr. O'Connell inquired, if the Irish Secret Service money had been diminished? Mr. Spring Rice said, that it was taken. at an average. The sum was 4,3007.

Mr. O'Connell observed, that formerly, Secret Pensions had been given out of this source, to persons connected with the Irish Press. He believed the government of the United States required no expenditure of this description for secret services.

Mr. Calley said, he wanted to know the way in which this secret service money was disposed of?

Sir M. W. Ridley said, hon. Gentlemen must be aware it was impossible to carry on a government without a vote of money for such purposes; and he was surprised the hon. and learned Gentleman should compare the Government of this country with that of the United States, which he believed be as corrupt as any under the sun. Mr. Hume was surprised at this assertion of the hon. Baronet. Was he aware that an embezzlement of a small sum of money was considered in the United States, of sufficient importance for a State prosecution.

Sir M. W. Ridley said, he believed what he had asserted, from information he had received.)

Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY-PARLIAMENTARY PRINTING.] Mr. Spring Rice said, 104,3007. was required, for printing Acts and Reports in both Houses of Parliament. There had been a considerable reduction in this

account.

Mr. Hunt said, there was a great waste

of the public money in printing memorials relative to certain boroughs, with large numbers of names attached.

Mr. R. Gordon said, the Ministry had reduced the amount in the expenditure of the Stationery office 5,000l. or 6,000l., and that was greatly to their credit.

Mr. Hume was satisfied that an unnecessary expense was incurred for printing. He could affirm this from the papers which came under his own inspection; and he believed considerable savings could be made, if they had better accounts made out.

Mr. Spring Rice said, that considerable expense might be avoided, if more judgment was exercised in moving the printing of papers. The document alluded to by the hon. member for Preston, was of such importance as to justify the expense of printing it.

Mr. D. W. Harvey was quite satisfied the expenses of printing might be considerably reduced, by engaging an active printer, with an adequate salary, to superintend an establishment which the House ought to have belonging to itself.

Sir M. W. Ridley observed, an unnecessary expense was often incurred by printing papers several times over. The same returns were often moved for by hon. Gentlemen, and each was printed. This caused much additional trouble to the persons who had the making them out, as well as an increased expense.

Vote agreed to.

Mr. Spring Rice said, in reply, the prosecutions had increased in proportion to the vote. The Solicitor of the Mint was paid by salary. He could, therefore, have no interest in augmenting the prosecutions. The number of convictions in proportion to prosecutions were, out of 587 persons prosecuted, during the last two years, 531 were convicted. This was itself sufficient proof that no trivial or unnecessary prosecutions had been undertaken.

Mr. Hume had asked the question, because the expense had increased. In 1826, it was 6,000l.; in 1827, 5,000l. Mr. Spring Rice said, the longer coin was in circulation, the easier it was to counter feit the impression. That was probably one reason for the increased number of crimes and of prosecutions.

Mr. Alderman Wood found there was frequently an unwillingness to prosecute in cases of this description.

Vote agreed to.

Mr. Spring Rice stated, that the expenses of convicts at home, amounted, a short time ago, to 70,5541.; at present, it did not exceed 63,7007.-the expenses of convicts at Bermuda, 31,3841.; now it was 29,6427.-the total amount of the Vote had, therefore, been reduced 8,5961. for both services. A sum of 15,000l. was voted for Law charges; 108,1657. was voted to defray the expense of maintaining and employing Convicts, at home and at Bermuda, for the year 1831.

SUPPLY-EXPENSE OF CAPTURED NEGROES.] On the resolution, that 25,000l. be granted for the support of Captured Negroes and Liberated Africans, Mr. Warre complained of the disgraceful continuance of the slave-trade, on the coast of Africa, and of the expense to which this country was subjected, by the culpable conduct of other Powers, in suffering their subjects to prosecute the Trade. No expense or trouble, on our parts, had been spared, to put down this most detestable traffic. But at length we were compelled to make this painful confession—that after all these exertions, and expenditure of treasure, and human life, we were thwarted by other countries. He had the authority of the Secretary of War for asserting, that since 1814, the expenses incurred had been nearly 5,000,000l. The several charges for the establishments we maintained, was not less than 400,000l. He therefore requested Ministers to maturely examine this ques

tion in all its bearings; and consider whether it was advisable to continue such heavy expenses, without a prospect of success, while unsupported or opposed by other nations.

Mr. Burge regretted to understand that the Foreign Slave-trade had been considerably increased, and was carried on in the most inhuman and revolting manner. He had given notice of a motion, on a previous night, to inquire into the whole subject of the Slave-trade, which had been postponed at the instance of the noble Lord, but the matter, he hoped, would not escape the vigilant attention of Government.

Mr. Hume was convinced this expense might be very much reduced, or altogether spared. There was no good reason for this country supporting Africans in idleness, in Sierra Leone, and they ought to have some explanation, whether any captured Negroes had been actually so supported. We had made this trade much worse by our interference. If other countries resisted the right of search of vessels on the African Coast, it was much more advisable for this country to give up this enormous expenditure of money, than to continue it, in the vain hope of abating the Slave-trade.

Mr. Spring Rice would be glad to give the information desired by the hon. member for Middlesex, at a future opportunity. The observation of the hon. member for Hastings involved the question of the Foreign Slave-trade, into which it was not expedient to enter.

Mr. Hume wished a Committee to be appointed, to follow up the inquiries that had been commenced. That was the information he required. Every information connected with the subject should be obtained. They had heard of slave-trading vessels being crowded with four or five times the number of unhappy creatures which ought to be on board them, and misery and death had much increased in consequence.

Mr. Spring Rice said, very great attention had been paid by Ministers to this subject, and it was still under their consideration.

Vote agreed to.

19,450l. was then voted for the expenses of the Commissions, under the Treaties with Foreign Powers, for the abolition of the Slave Trade.

Lord Althorp explained, that the settle