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bringing forward discussions otherwise MONEY BILLS-PRIVILEGES OF THE than when regularly fixed and appointed. House.) Mr. C. W. Wynn observed, that Respecting the laws between landlord and he had, in the last Session of Parliament, tenant, he confessed that his impression moved a Resolution which had a reference was, that those laws ought not to be re- to the privileges of the House. That Relaxed; he thought nothing ought to be solution related to Bills containing pecudone to loosen those ties which led to the niary penalties or forfeitures, which might employment of capital in agricultural spe- be returned from the House of Lords to culations. Recurring to the subject of ihe 'that House with amendments. He now Poor-laws, he must repeat, that the great- i begged leave to move the same Resolution est caution was necessary—that the Go- ! -namely, “That, in any Bill which, havvernment was most anxions to do all in ing passed the House of Lords, shall be its power, but that if driven--as he feared sent down to this House for their concurthey ultimately would be driven, however rence, or in any Bill which, having passed reluctantly--to the adoption of such a this House, shall be returned by the Lords system, they ought previously to leave no with Amendments, it shall appear that any measure untried for otherwise ameliorating pecuniary penalty or forfeiture is thereby the condition of the labouring classes in imposed, varied, or taken away, the Ireland, by the introduction of capital, and Speaker shall, before the second reading of if possible, by creating a demand for la- such Bill or Amendments, report to the bour, in the hope that eventually no sys- House his opinion whether the object tem of Poor-laws might be required. thereof be to impose, vary, or take away, Much benefit might be effected without any pecuniary charge or burthen on the the introduction of the Poor-laws. He subject; or whether the same relates only thought that, by the application of capital to the punishment or the prevention of to employ labour, instead of the applica- offences; and the House shall, thereupon, tion of capital to support individuals, and determine whether it may be expedient in by improvement of the means of commu- such particular case, to insist upon the nication between different parts of Ireland, exercise of their privilege to originate all Government might enable that country to such provisions respecting pecuniary pebring forward its very great resources, and nalties or forfeitures." to attain that prosperity for which its lo- Resolution agreed to, as a Standing cal advantages so well qualified it.

Order. Mr. Ruthven did not wish to see a system of Poor-laws established in Ireland, PUNISHMENT OF Death.) Mr. Trant but was obliged to deplore the necessity inquired of the hon. member for Liverpool which he feared was approaching for its whether he meant to bring forward a mointroduction. There was a great deal of tion for the abolition of the punishment charity in Ireland, but it came from those of death for offences against property. who ought to be protected from the ne- Mr. Ewart said, such was his intention. cessity of frequent donations, while those on whom the obligation of providing for FREEMEN OF DURHAM.] Mr. Trant the poor equally rested, ought to be com- presented a Petition against Reform from pelled to do their duty.

ihe Freemen of Durham now resident in Address agreed to.

that borough.

Sir Henry Hardinge expressed his conINTERFERENCE OF PEERS WITH Elec- currence in the prayer, and bore testimony TIONS.] Mr. Hunt rose, to bring forward to the respectability of the petitioners, adhis Motion respecting the interference of ding, that the Reform Bill of last Session Peers in the election of Members of that would deprive the children of between 400 House. He explained that his object was and 500 persons of their right of suffrage. to preserve the character of that House by

Petition to be printed. presenting the interference of Peers, for which purpose he meant to move certain ADDITIONAL REPRESENTATIVES FOR Resolutions as already explained; but Mayo.) Mr. John Browne, on presentfinding no chance of carrying them he ing two Petitions from the county of Mayo would beg leave to withdraw the Resolu- for additional Representatives to be given tion of which he had given notice. to that county, said, the Reform Bill was Ordered accordingly.

generally supported by the people of Ireland, but they considered that their claim a most gross and scandalous libel upon himfor an increased number of Representatives self, which had appeared in some of the had been overlooked. li had been public prints, purporting to be observations stated, that at the Union the number of made by a Member of the other House of Members given was in proportion to the Parliament, and imputing to him (Lord population, but since that time the wealth, Plunkett) conduct of the most unjustifiable population, and commerce, of Ireland had description. The whole statement was very much increased. If that principle was a gross and abominable falsehood from still binding, it should now be enforced, beginning to end, and he was wholly at a for many parts of Ireland were very inade- loss to imagine where the materials for so quately represented.

foul a calumny could be found. Indeed Mr. O'Connell observed, that the hon. so utterly destitute was it of the slightest Member was mistaken if he supposed, that semblance of truth, that he was perfectly 100 Members were given to Ireland at the unable to conjecture by what extraordinary Union, because that was the proportionate effort of ingenuity sueh a statement could number for her wealth and population as be fabricated. This statement, in which compared with other parts of the empire. there was not one particle of truth, was Petition to be printed.

put forth as having proceeded from a man

of honour, a gentleman of respectability, HOUSE OF LORDS,

and the Member of an important county in Thursday, June 23, 1831.

Ireland. And he thus adverted to the MINUTES.] Petitions presented, by Lord Dundas, several matter, to ascertain if any of their Lord

Petitions from Hawick, Falkirk, and other places in Scot- ships could offer any excuse for this most land, for the Reduction of Taxation, for the Abolition of false, scandalous and libellous statement. Negro Slavery, and for Parliamentary Reforn. By Lord

He would to-morrow bring the subject King, for the Abolition of Tithes, from Chetsford, Farnborough, Orpington, and Keston, and from several places under their Lordship's consideration. in Ireland; as, also from Carlow, against the Grants to

The Marquis of Londonderry said, that the Kildare Street Society, and for the Repeal of the Union; and from the Licensed Beer sellers of Brighton, to he concluded an hon. Baronet, a friend of have Spirit Licences. By the Bishop of Ferns, from the his, was the Member of the other House of Students of Trinity College, Dublin, to have their Elec

Parliament to whose observations the tive Franchise assimilated to that of Cambridge and Oxford.

noble and learned Lord alluded. He

had had some conversation with his hon. His MAJEST Y's AnsweR TO TIE AD-friend, as to the statement of the exDRESS.] The Lord Chancellor said, that traordinary interference of the Governhe had to inform the House, that their ment in Ireland during the late elections. Lordships had waited upon his Majesty of this he was sure, that a more honourwith the Address of that House, to which able man, or one more incapable of makhis Majesty was graciously pleased to re-ing any unfounded statement, injurious or turn the following most gracious answer : libellous towards any individual whatever, -“ My Lords—I thank you for your loyal did not exist. He would almost pledge and dutiful Address. I receive with plea- his honourthat for any statement which had sure your assurance that you will proceed been made by the hon. Baronet, he would to an early consideration of the matters be able to give such satisfactory reasons which I have recommended to your atten- to the noble and learned Lord as would tion; and I rely with confidence on your induce him not to bring the subject under zealous support of my endeavours to public discussion, until some private exmaintain the peace and promote the pros-planation had been given respecting it. perity of my dominions.'

As far as he understood the matter, the The Duke of Richmond moved that his particular statement repeated by the hon. Majesty's most gracious Answer to the Baronet had been made to him in Dublin, Address be entered on the Journals. by an individual who asserted that he

knew its truth. It was clear, therefore, ABUSE or PATRONAGE (IRELAND).] that the hon. Baronet took his information Lord Plunkett said, that the absence upon trust; that his statement had been of his noble friend (Earl Grey) would made upon hearsay. Such being the case, induce him to defer until to-morrow the he was sure that the hon. Baronet would adverting to a subject, the notice of which be quite ready to give up his authority. it gave him the greatest uneasiness to post- Thereforepone for a single moment. He alluded to The Lord Chancellor apologized for interrupting the noble Marquis, put him have said in the House of Commons, or right on a point of Order, but there was for what had been imputed to him in a a distinction, perhaps subtle, but cer- newspaper; but for the purpose of publicly tainly necessary, which he wished to sub- defending himself from one of the grossmit to the noble Marquis's consideration. est and foullest attacks that was ever made If any Member of the House of Commons upon an individual. said any thing of any noble Lord, how- Lord Ellenborough said, that the noble ever gross and unfounded ; if he charged and learned Lord on the Woolsack had any noble Lord with any offence, bow- certainly placed the matter on its true ever scandalous and vile, it was for the ground. If an attack appeared upon any House of Commons, if it so thought noble Lord in a newspaper, to whomsofit, to punish or take cognizance of the ever that attack was imputed, it was the accusation; but the House of Lords had duty of that noble Lord to stand forward no power what ever to do so; the law and defend his honour and character; but of the land, the Bill of Rights, declared, if the attack was made in the other House that no Member of the House of Com- of Parliament, then it was not open to mons should be called in question elsewhere any noble Lord to bring the conduct of for any statement which he might think that Member under their Lordships' conproper to make in that House. But, if sideration. any publication took place out of doors, of Lord Plunkett repeated, that the attack any statement made within the walls of upon him was of the grossest description. the House of Commons, whoever made He was charged with trafficking in judicial that publication was without any defence and other offices for the purpose of inwhatever; for he could receive no pro- Auencing the late elections in Jreland; tection from the privileges enjoyed by a and with having, in one particular instance, Member of the House of Commons. This bartered an assistant Barrister's place for was a plainly marked line of distinction; thirty votes. He had also been charged and the noble Marquis would, therefore, at with promising appointments in the Church once see, that a Member of the House of (he wished he had any to give) for Commons could not be called over the similar purposes. These charges were coals in the House of Lords for any thing made upon hearsay, and he called upon which had fallen from him in his own any man, either in that or the other House, House of Parliament. Under these to state the grounds on which this gross circumstances, therefore, the noble Mar- slander was founded. quis had, perhaps, better wait until to- The Marquis of Londonderry could not morrow, when his noble and learned friend think it possible that his hon. friend would had intimated his intention of bringing have brought forward such charges, withthe subject forward, and he might then out conceiving that there was some found. apply his observations to the statementation for them, whether good or not; which had been made in the newspaper, but whether these charges were to the and not to the Member of the House of extent represented he could give no Commons to whom that statement was opinion. imputed.

Lord Plunkett again denied, that there The Marquis of Londonderry was was the slightest foundation for the obliged to the noble and learned Lord for charges. If any person said, that they setting him right. His only anxiety had were founded, to any extent whatever, he been, to defend his hon. friend from the said that which was not true. charge of having advanced any statement, The Motion for inserting his Majesty's without having, at least, some reason to Answer to the Address in the Journals, believe that it was founded in truth; for agreed to. the hon. Baronet alluded to had come to him that morning in great anxiety, request- BEER BILL.] The Bishop of Bath ing him to give this explanation, should and Wells presented a Petition from the the subject be mooted by the noble and Clergy and other Inhabitants of his Diolearned Lord.

cese, praying for the Repeal of the Beer Lord Plunkett observed, that he should | Bill. The petition was signed by every bring the subject forward, not for the pur- clergyman in the Diocese, and stated, that pose of attacking any Member of the pauperism had much increased since the House of Commons for what he might passing of the Act. The right rev. PreVOL. IV. {Third


late warmly supported the prayer of the not the same bad results in large towns as petition; and maintained, that the Bill in agricultural districts, which made him had had a most demoralizing effect on suppose, that the Legislature would be the people. Every third or fourth house likely to view it in too favourable a light. in some of the country towns was become He hoped his Majesty's Government a beer-shop; and the greatest excesses would see if, by giving the Magistrates a were, in consequence, committed. In control over these houses, or by some Somersetshire the pernicious effects of other legislative provision, the evils which this Bill were too palpable. He called on the Bill bad occasioned might not be corthe noble and learned Lord on the Wool- rected. sack, who professed himself to be so friend- Viscount Melbourne willingly admitted, ly to the improvement of the people, to that the noble Earl had never shown any assist in putting an end to a system by which hostility to the people. His anxiety to the people were vitiated. He called on improve their morals was itself a proof of the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's the interest which he took in their welGovernment, who was so anxious for Re- fare. He perfectly concurred also in the form, by the repeal of the Bill in question noble Earl's statement, that there was a to effect a reform of the most desirable great difference between objecting to a character. With respect to the description bill before it was passed, and repealing it of Reform for which the noble Earl him after it had been passed. He likewise self was so zealous an advocate, he (the agreed with the noble Earl, that it might Bishop of Bath and Wells) was bound be practicable to add some police reguconscientiously to declare, that he couldnot lations to the Bill, which would have give it his assent. At the same time he the effect of diminishing the evils commust assert, that not one of their Lordships plained of. The matter should, undoubtwas more ready to respect and promote edly, be considered by his Majesty's the liberties of the people than he was. Government. He should certainly say,

The Earl of Malmesbury was glad to that the opinion of the country generally hear such opinions fall from the right rev. was, that the effects of the Bill had been Prelate, which, he was sure, would have pernicious. They were, however, unmuch weight with their Lordships. He equally so. The evils were not so much had been by no means favourable to the felt in towns. That increased the diffiBill against which the right rev. Prelate culty of legislating upon the subject; as had just presented a petition. At the one law was required for the country, and same time, to repeal a law after it had another for the town. He must say, howpassed, was a very different thing from ever, that he thought the declaration in opposing its adoption. He was quite the petition, of the very sudden and exaware, that the law had been productive tensive change which the Bill had proof many evils; but were there not ways duced in the morals of the people, was in in which the number of those evils might a great measure fancy and exaggeration. be diminished ? What he suggested was He did not know how it would be possible to in no hostility whatever towards the peo- give the Magistrates a greater power over ple. On the contrary, he was influenced the beer-houses without an absolute return by a wish for their comfort, and that com- to the licensing system ; but some police fort could not be better consulted than by regulations seemed to be necessary, and an improvement of their moral habits. the subject should receive the imniediate The scenes of debauchery which occa- attention of Government. sionally took place in the beer-houses were The Earl of Malmesbury, in explanaof the grossest description. Would it not, tion, observed, that he by no therefore, be advantageous to give the Ma- wished to return to the licensing system. gistrates some control over those houses ? Lord Teynham recommended, as the lle wished that the poor man should carry best means of remedying the evils comhis beer home to his family, instead of plained of, the abolition of the hop and exhausting his means and health in these malt duties, which would enable the peohouses of excess, and entering into scenes (ple to brew their beer at home. of the lowest debauchery. Instances had The Marquis of Salisbury did not think even occurred in which parties bad drawn the Bill had been attended with that great out their earnings from the savings' banks demoralization which had been represented, to indulge in these excesses. The Act had I although it had been injurious in many cases. The houses licensed under the of things could not continue; and that Act, however, were falling into the hands if the people were left without employof brewers, which he apprehended would ment, they would be ready again to break go far to decrease the evils complained of. forth into outrages, and there would be a


Lord King observed, that the different display of much worse feeling, and a more effects in the towns and the country was terrible and mischievous spirit, among the attributable to this circumstance-namely, agricultural peasantry, than that which that in large towns the Poor-laws were created so much alarm some months ago. inoperative, and the poorer classes knew Viscount Goderich said, that it was by if they spent all their money in beer they no means certain that there was a surplus would have no relief, and must suffer; population throughout the country-in whereas in the country, the poor man some parts of it there certainly was not; knew that if he spent any extra money although in other places a great want of which he might make at harvest time, in- employment did exist : however, it was the stead of laying it by for less profitable intention of his Majesty's Government, in seasons, he should not suffer, as he should the course of the present Session, to prohave parochial relief. Though he should pose to Parliament two bills, one of which, be sorry to see the Act repealed, he on the subject of emigration, he expected thought it might be amended.

would prove an advantageous measure, The Bishop of Bath and Wells ex- and would most probably give great relief. pressed his thanks to the noble Secretary With regard to any plan for home coloof State for the Home Department, for nization that was a matter of greater diffihaving promised to turn his immediate culty, and he could not undertake to say attention to this important subject, and he that Government had made up their minds trusted to meet with the cordial co-opera- on the subject. tion of the noble and learned Lord.

The Earl of Malmesbury was happy The Lord Chancellor observed, that no something was likely to be done. He pains had been wanting on his part to in- would recommend the repeal of an absurd quire into the subject before the Bill was regulation which limited to twenty acres passed. He agreed with the noble Earl, the quantity of land a parish could rent for who had said, that it was one thing to ob- the employment of its poor. He recomject to the passing of the Bill, and another, mended, too, the employment of such lathe Bill having passed, to propose its re- bourers as were out of work, at a regular peal. He hoped that in the introduction and standard rate of wages, and he thought of any superintending or controlling power, some such plan would remove part of the nothing would be done to alter the great evil at present existing. As to emigration, principle of the measure, or tend to restore that, in his opinion, would encounter insuthe licensing system.

perable difficulties in many parishes, al

though it might be useful in others. EMPLOYMENT OF LABOURERS.] The Lord Suffield considered this question Earl of Winchilsea begged leave to in- most important--not inferior to the subject quire if it was the intention of his Ma- of Reform. Reform would be the means jesty's Government, in the course of this of effecting a great deal of good, but he Session, to bring forward any plan for the was not so absurd as to suppose that Repurpose of affording agricultural relief, by form, though carried to the utmost extent, providing for the surplus population, by would at once relieve the country from all home colonization or otherwise. If Go. its difficulties. It had been said, that a vernment had no intention of producing superabundance of population did not any plan for the relief of the people in the exist in all parts of the country; but that agricultural districts, he gave notice that was no reason, in his opinion, why means it was his intention again to lay on the should not be taken to remedy the evil Table the bill he had introduced last Ses- where it did exist. He did not believe, sion, for the purpose of compelling parishes that the eastern part of the country, with to employ the unemployed labourer. He which he was connected, was exempted was convinced that some enactment of from the evil; and with respect to Northat kind was necessary, as he knew seve-folk, he could confirm what had fallen ral parishes in Kent, where sixty or seventy from the noble Earl (Winchilsea). Being able-bodied men were receiving weekly acquainted with these circumstances, he relief. He was certain the present state could assure the House that he would en

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