The Marquis of Lansdown thought it not possible that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had put any question to their Lordships as to the reading of the Address.

The Duke of Buckingham said, he heard the noble and learned Lord do so.

The Marquis of Lansdown admitted that it was the duty of the Lord Chancelto read any motion which might be made, as a matter of course.

Lord Ellenborough regretted, that any | lent opinion among their Lordships he cause should have been given for the pre- should make no further observation on it. sent discussion. He thought it the duty The Duke of Buckingham wished to of every noble Lord to adhere to the forms draw the attention of the House to an of the House. Those forms were all error, which, like the other two which had founded in reason. They maintained the been already noticed, he supposed had privileges of the House, and by so doing proceeded from inadvertence. The noble secured the interests of the kingdom. He and learned Lord on the Woolsack had had not the least doubt that on the present put the question from the Woolsack that occasion the noble Duke had erred from the Address be read, and had declared the inadvertence. He had no doubt, that the Contents to have it. That was not the noble Earl had likewise erred from inad- way in which an Address ought to be laid vertence when he suffered the noble Lord before their Lordships. The noble Duke on the Woolsack to commence reading opposite had a right to have the Address his Majesty's speech without first pro- read without any question being put by ceeding to move, according to usual cus- the Lord Chancellor. tom, the first reading of some bill. That was the second instance of inadvertence in one evening. Yet these things might be drawn into precedents, and in future times prove injurious to the interests and privileges of that House of Parliament. This was not the time when it was consistent with the duty of any Peer to allow those privileges to be infringed. With respect to the immediate subject of discus-lor sion, he must venture so far to differ from the noble Earl, as to think that consider- The Lord Chancellor said, that he found able public inconvenience would arise from the situation which he held in that House the course which, through inadvertence, to be very different from that of the had been taken by the noble Duke and Speaker of the House of Commons. The noble Earl opposite. On all former oc- Speaker of their Lordships' House was casions there had been afforded to that only nominally a Speaker, He had no and the other House of Parliament two power to enforce order beyond what any occasions on which to deliver their one of their Lordships possessed. The opinions by vote upon the Address to duty he had to perform was very difficult his Majesty namely, first, on moving to discharge when there were so many the address; and, secondly, upon the masters. He wished to read the Address, presentation of the report of the Com- but he heard several Lords cry out, "No;" mittee; and it had very often happened and then he heard others cry out, "Yes." that important debates had arisen on the Now it was very easy to say that such and latter occasion. But he asked their Lord- such a thing was a matter of course; and ships, how could they refer to a committee that this or that must be done. the consideration of that which they in the be done," he repeated, was easily said; whole House definitely determined upon? but when he heard noble Lords give difIf their Lordships agreed to the Address in ferent directions, he wanted to know its a present shape, they would preclude which he must obey. He therefore thought themselves from all further consideration it his duty to ask what the sense of their of it. He did not care whether the form Lordships was, with respect to the terms of the Address was adopted or not. All he of the Address, and with a view to obviate wished was, that it might not be drawn the difficulty which had been started, he into a precedent, and employed hereafter had proposed to put before the words by some Minister desirous of using that "we your Majesty's loyal," &c., "that an House in a manner not consistent with humble Address be presented to his Majesthe Constitution, as a means to attack its ty to the following effect." But then it was privileges and interests. His object was suggested that that might be drawn into a gained in calling their Lordships' atten- precedent; and he would, therefore, with tion to the subject, and in concurrence their Lordships' kind indulgence, endeawith what he conceived to be the preva-vour to read the Address, converting it

"Must

from the first person into the third person, as he proceeded. The noble and learned Lord then put the question, whether it was their Lordships' pleasure that he should read the Address in that manner.

The Earl of Carnarvon said, that the noble Duke had a right to have the address read without any question being put thereon.

A noble Lord thought, that the noble Duke who moved the Address was the most proper person to amend it.

Lord Holland said, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack did not pretend substantially to alter the motion which had been put into his hand, but had asked permission of the House, in common with the noble mover of the motion, to make an alteration in point of form. If this matter was considered of prodigious importance, unquestionably any noble Lord might rise and say, that he would not agree to the proposition, and then, in order to effect the proposed alteration, the noble mover must make the motion in an amended shape. But unless any noble Lord should think the alteration proposed by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack of such portentous effect that the consequence would be put to the House to great inconvenience, and effect its privileges and interests, then the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack might at once, with the permission of the House, make the alteration which he had suggested. When a Peer made a motion, he was considered to read it as part of his speech, and afterwards to write it down at the Table. If any mistake occurred in the Motion, it was usual to permit the motion to be put in an altered state, which the mover and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack might think more consonant with the usages of the House.

which was under the consideration of the House. In the course of the discussion a doubt had arisen as to a matter of form. When such a doubt arose, it was the usual courtesy of the House to allow the person who made the motion to be first heard.

The Duke of Norfolk then withdrew the Address which he first proposed, and afterwards presented it in the customary form.

The Earl of Eldon, after reading some extracts from the Journals, said it was apparent from them, that the Committee appointed to consider the Address had the power to alter its terms, but not its import.

The Marquis of Londonderry hoped now to be allowed to make one observation. He thought it a most extaordinary circumstance that the members of that Government, who were so very tenacious in urging points of order on futile pretences at the close of last session, should find fault with the noble Baron (Ellenborough) for standing up, as he was bound to do, in defence of the principles of the House, which were infringed by the want of official knowledge or negligence on the part of the Government. The noble Duke had not been properly prompted as to the manner of shaping his motion.

Lord Holland rose to order. It was a very trite and old saying, that nothing was so unlike as a simile. So from what he had observed within the last hour, if he were to make any criticism on parliamentary proceedings he should say that nothing was so disorderly as a debate on a point of order. The noble Lord who had just sat down had drawn that observation more particularly from him, by carrying disorder to its complete summit; beyond which disorder could no farther go. The noble Lord had in the course of a single sentence contrived to commit three distinct breaches of order. He had alluded to what had passed formerly in debate. Their LordLord Farnham thought the importance ships were aware that when matters once of the question arose from the manner in passed that House, it could no longer which it would appear in the Journals of come within their cognizance; and that the House. He therefore recommended was a rule of much greater importance the noble Duke to alter his motion in the than the question whether the Address manner which had been suggested. He should be moved in a direct form, or be considered it best to have the language of referred to a Committee; because if it the Address altered, otherwise it would be were once admitted that a discussion might needless to refer it to a Committee. be entered into upon disorderly language used in former debates in Parliament, the stability of their Lordships' judicial decrees would be shaken, and even those Statutes which they passed as one of the Houses of Parliament. He would conclude

The Duke of Norfolk and the Marquis of Londonderry rose together, amidst loud and general cries of "Order."

Lord Holland rose to order. The noble Duke, he said, had made a motion,

The Lord Chancellor was then suffered to put the motion in its amended form.

with the observation which he made before, | of efficient and substantial Reform in the and the truth of which he was not sure Representative system of the country; and but he had confirmed by his own practice, with reference to that, he could not help that there was nothing so disorderly as a adverting to the very disinterested conduct debate on order. of the noble Duke, who, at a great sacrifice of personal and family interests, was the zealous supporter of Reform. It was in itself a great argument in favour of Reform, that the first nobleman in the land was a strenuous supporter of the measure, and that nobleman being one who would never violate his conscience to gain his proper situation in that House, and who never would act in opposition to its dictates, even if the consequence should be the loss of the situation which he had at last attained. They who advocated the cause of Reform were accused of entertaining indefinite views, and of promoting indiscriminate change; but that was an accusation which did not apply to any of those in this House who were friends to Reform, and least of all to the noble Duke. He hoped the House would pardon what he had said, which might be considered in the light of a digression. He would now, however, proceed to consider the several points of the Address. He most cordially echoed the congratulation in his Majesty's Speech on the preservation of peace. Whoever had cast even a cursory glance on the state of Europe must be aware that his Majesty's Government had a delicate and difficult task to perform for the preservation of peace; but they had been successful in that great object, and their success hitherto afforded a happy presage of ultimate and complete success. The success which had hitherto attended the exertions of his Majesty's Ministers was, in all probability, greatly to be attributed to the circumstance, that they were well known to have been always the strenuous and consistent advocates of peace, when peace could be

The Earl of Mulgrave rose to second the Address. If he rose before somewhat prematurely, it was not with any intention to violate the orders of their Lordships' House. His ideas of order had been acquired in another place, and he hoped this would be his apology. Certainly, neither he nor any of his friends on that side of the House had any intention to violate the rights and liberties of the people through a disregard to the privileges and orders of the House. As to the observation made by the noble Marquis (Londonderry), he would, at the risk of incurring the indignation of his noble friend (Lord Holland) behind him, venture to call to the recollection of the noble Marquis, that there was at one time in the course of last Session a degree of disorder in this House, which was by no means calculated to keep up that deference and respect, which ought always to be preserved, if possible, for the manner in which the proceedings of their Lordships' House were conducted. He would say no more on that point, but he hoped that the proceeding of this night would not turn out to be only the first symptom of a frivolous and factious opposition to his Majesty's Government. As for himself, there were two principles particularly which he had considered it his duty to advocate as far as lay in his power. The one was the principle of religious liberty, or that of putting an end to all civil disabilities depending on difference of creeds. He congratulated their Lordships and the country, that a great Reform in that respect had taken place, the conse-preserved in consistency with the honour quence of which was, that the noble of the country. The influence of their Mover of the Address had that seat among character had been in this respect fully them now which he ought to have had appreciated in settling the Belgian queslong ago. No one who heard the noble tion, and he fully concurred in the Duke could fail to sympathize with him, principle of non-interference on which the when he made the touching allusion to his negotiations concerning that had been want of practice in parliamentary speaking, conducted as recognised by the Speech which was the effect of the unjust exclu- and the Address. He concurred, therefore, sion, and no one could help deploring the in what, in one view, might be considered cause of the noble Duke's embarrassment as an exception to the rule; namely in when so explained. It was a proof that the the interference, so far as the settlement settlement of the Catholic Question hadbeen of the internal affairs of Belgium might be delayed too long. The other principle to connected with the interests of other powwhich he alluded was the great principle'ers. He did not think that any Ministers VOL. IV. Third

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of England would venture to interfere in also injurious to the interests of all the the internal affairs of other countries be- neighbouring nations. Before leaving that yond the limits which he had mentioned; part of the Speech and Address which rebut yet he could not help considering it a lated to Belgium, he thought it right to fortunate circumstance that the confer- observe, that the character of the distinences were not conducted, on the part of guished individual who was spoken of as this country, by those who, while they the future Sovereign of Belgium would afcommended the principle of non-interfer- ford a strong guarantee for the preservaence, in the same breath pronounced tion of peace as far as respected that judgment on the question at issue. The country. That individual, by his long repart of the Speech relating to this subject sidence here, had received lessons of tolewas in these terms:-"The principle on rance, and had probably acquired a pruwhich these conferences has been con- dent and temperate, but, at the same time, ducted has been that of non-interference energetic mode of meeting occasional viowith the right of the people of Belgium to lence, which would render him a most varegulate their own internal affairs, and to luable Sovereign for Belgium, and he re-establish their own Government accord- thought from the connection of that noble ing to their own views of what might be person with this country, combined with most conducive to their welfare and inde- his entire independence of its Government, pendence, on the sole condition sanctioned that he was remarkably well qualified for by the practice of nations, and the princi- the office. With such a Sovereign he had ples of public law, that in the exercise of no doubt that Belgium would take her that undisputed right, the security of rank among the scale of European nations, neighbouring nations should not be endan-guarding with jealousy their common prigered." He concurred both in the general vileges which she was called upon to principle and in the condition annexed to share. With respect to our transactions it. It might happen that the people of a with Portugal, though they had not led to particular nation, when they came to the re-establishment of our diplomatic rechoose a Sovereign, might choose one so lations with the government of that counconnected with another Power as to endan-try, he thought that the result was such ger the independence of other nations, and as he might congratulate their Lordships. this was a case for interference. There upon, for satisfaction was as promptly was a great precedent for this in the Ad-given, as it was decisively demanded. The dress presented to his Majesty King William 3rd, just before what was called the War of the Succession, praying that he would interfere to prevent Louis 14th from placing his grandson Philip on the Throne of Spain. He was not prepared to say, however, that there might not be times and circumstances in which even intervention only to that extent might not be inexpedient and unadvisable. But the example which he had mentioned at least afforded a distinct precedent for this interference. Objections, indeed, had been made to any intervention in regard to the question of boundaries. It appeared to him, however, that that question came naturally under consideration in the Conferences, and the advantage of its having been taken up by the five Powers was, that the matter might be settled without any recourse to arms. Of all modes. of settling a national question, the mode, of having recourse to arms was the worst, and therefore, that mode ought to be avoided if possible. It was injurious to the real interest of the contending parties, and

course adopted by his Majesty's Govern-
ment, was that which the late Government
ought to have followed. On this, how-
ever, he would not now enter further, as
he had taken an opportunity of going at
length into the subject on a former occa-
sion, in another place. There were two
other points connected with our foreign
policy-or, he would rather say, with fo-
reign politics-on which he would only
say a single word. The first was, as to
the disturbances which took place in seve-
ral of the continental States.
these were in the States of absolute So-
vereigns, who, he hoped, would see in
time the necessity of making some conces
sion to the wants and wishes of their sub-
jects. The other point related to a ques-
tion which had excited the feelings and
sympathies of nearly the whole of Europe.
There was scarcely any society in which
one mixed, whatever might be its com-
plexion, in which he did not hear an ex-
pression of sympathy at the unexampled
sufferings, and of admiration at the un-
bounded heroism, of a people who were

In

very general consumption-he meant the duty on beer. That reduction was wise in principle; but he regretted that it had not been productive of the effects intended on the moral habits of the people. speaking of the condition of the people, it was melancholy to reflect that so large a portion of them in some districts in the western parts of Ireland should be reduced to a state of starvation. This called for some immediate measure of relief; and while he thought that it should not be on such a scale as might hold out extravagant hopes, he felt that the distress was of such a character, that the power to relieve should be synonymous with the duty of granting relief, for it was impossible to look at the frightful extent to which mis

now making a powerful struggle for the recovery of their national independence. Even the Ministers of absolute Governments could not help expressing their wishes that this protracted contest should be terminated in a manner satisfactory to all parties, and they felt and expressed the most unbounded admiration of the excellent conduct of the people to whom he alluded. He would not enter further into the subject, as it had been only incidentally alluded to in the Speech from the Throne, though, at the same time, he must say, that the same reasons which might justify a Government for not entering upon the subject did not prevent an individual from stating his own opinion respecting it; but for that a more fit occasion would occur hereafter. He regretted that his Ma-ery, from the privation of common necesjesty's Government had not been enabled to carry its intentions with respect to reduction to the extent at first contemplated; but he hoped that the disturbances in some parts of the kingdom, which made it necessary to keep a greater force than would otherwise have been required, would yield to the due administration of the law, and that the necessity for an extra force would thus be removed. His Majesty's Government would then introduce that extensive economy it was their wish to promote, but which, owing to these circumstances, they had not carried so far as they desired. With respect to the revenue, it was matter of congratulation to learn that it was in a comparatively flourishing state, and that the diminution of 4,000,000l. of taxes had been felt as a financial decrease to only the extent of 2,000,000l., thus in effect doubling the amount of relief given. Of the taxes thus taken away, there was none the repeal of which called more for admiration than that of the duty on coals. In his opinion sufficient attention had not been paid to the influence which cheap coals had upon the character and condition of the people. It was found that where coals were cheap, it had the best effect on the domestic habits of the humbler classes, making them seek those enjoyments at home, to obtain which the want of fuel often drove them to the ale-house. He angured, therefore, the best effects from the reduction which had taken place in the duty on this article. He was sorry that he could not congratulate their Lordships on the same good effect on the reduction of the duty on another article of

saries, prevailed, without taking some immediate steps for its alleviation. A stronger proof could not be given of the extent of the distress, than the dreadful resort of the poor to the seed already in the ground for food, thus cutting off at once their only chance of a future supply. It was impossible that such a state of things could long exist with any hope that the tranquillity of those places thus visited with this terrible infliction could be preserved. He would not enter into the causes to which much of this distress was to be attributed. Indeed, he took shame to himself, that, as an Englishman, he knew so little personally of the state of Ireland; but from the accounts he had received from others, he had reason to believe that much of the distress endured by the peasantry in many parts of Ireland was owing to the great neglect of their condition. In many places the peasant had no means of subsistence but a wretched patch of land, not sufficient to yield enough for the support of his family for half the year. He had also heard that in many instances the condition of the peasant was greatly affected, and his distress caused, by the character of his landlord. Without, however, going into the cause, he thought their Lordships were bound to give their best attention to some measure of relief; and it was in this respect consolatary to learn, that his noble friends around him (the Ministers) were disposed to adopt such measures as would afford some permanent security against the recurrence of such distress in fature. Another topic to which the Speech from the Throne alluded, was one on which he did