less. We plead for the greatest possible liberty, recognizing the diversity of the American people. This liberty and diversity are clearly expressed in our wide choice of leisure time activities, many of which make little sense to those not participating. While few of these recreational pursuits are economic in themselves, collectively they consume billions of dollars worth of goods and services.

If in our panic or zeal we are willing to set aside article II of the Bill of Rights, then perhaps we should also speak about altering article I. Any decent library can inform an interested person how to make simple gunpowder and how to make a simple but highly effective firearm. No one would be so absurd as to suggest that these books be either burned or put away to be used only by "approved" persons. There are persons. There are many books, movies, and television shows today which celebrate our heritage of violence. Are these to be censored? Is a young man who cannot be trusted with a shotgun to be entrusted with the books of the library?

Chairman DODD. There are those who think they ought to be toned down.

Mr. JUNGROTH. Yes, Senator; I believe you are right.

The North Dakota Wildlife Federation strongly advocates the regulation proposed in S. 1853, prohibiting interstate shipping of firearms in violation of the laws of the State of destination. The responsibility for firearms regulation should remain with the States. The State legislatures alone truly know the needs and feelings of the local people. We respectfully request, therefore, that this committee support S. 1853, which we believe is the most effective control proposed and one that would reconcile all divergent interests. S. 1853 recognizes the diversity of conditions and customs among our States which is, after all, one of the fundamental virtues of our Federal system. Chairman DODD. Thank you very much. It is an intelligent, interesting statement.

Senator Burdick?

Senator BURDICK. I, too, would like to thank Mr. Jungroth. You made a salient point with regard to youth, at least in our western country. You state that the youngster who is hunting or involved in a shooting club competition is seldom the youth who hangs around doing nothing but committing acts of vandalism or car prowls.

In the western country as you all know, the average young man in his teens learns to use the rifle, the .22 in hunting rabbits, gophers, and things of that nature and he is not the boy that is found in the pool hall and other places. Is that not correct?

Mr.JUNGROTH. We have had the statement made by local sheriffs that they have never had vandals with hunting or fishing licenses in their pockets and I think this is accurate.

Senator BURDICK. That is all. Thank you very much.

Chairman DODD. Senator Hruska?

Senator HRUSKA. Mr. Jungroth, have you considered S. 1854 which deals with destructive devices?

Mr. JUNGROTH. Yes, Senator, and our wildlife club does support it but it was never formally taken up at our convention. All I can say is the board of directors feels and I know that all of us would support it. We believe this is the correct approach.

Senator HRUSKA. There seems to be little dispute about what Senator Dodd and I are trying to get at it in the destructive devices field. I was wondering what your opinion on it was.

Mr. JUNGROTH. We feel this is true. But we prefer to have it in the area that it is in now, rather than moving it, as I believe S. 1 does to another realm of enforcement.

Senator HRUSKA. Of course S. 1853 restricts it to sporting guns, guns with sporting purposes and legal purposes. Is that not true! Mr.JUNGROTH. This is my understanding.

Senator HRUSKA. Whereas the National Firearms Act, the so-calle. Machinegun Act of 1934 would, in your judgment, be a more proper place to treat with the destructive devices to which you refer?

Mr. JUNGROTH. This is exactly my point, that I feel that that is

correct.

Senator HRUSKA. You think we who collect guns or use them for hunting or for target practice, are in a somewhat different category than the machinegun or bazooka?

Mr. JUNGROTH. That is correct. That is accurate. We don't build bombs and we are not interested in them.

Chairman DODD. Apropos of what Senator Hruska was inquiring about, do you believe that a convicted narcotics addict should be allowed to buy one of these destructive devices?

Mr. JUNGROTH. No, sir; I do not.

Chairman DODD. Do you know if this matter is put under the National Firearms Act this could happen?

Mr. JUNGROTH. I think that could be very adequately handled with language in the bill.

Chairman DODD. It ought to be if we are going to do it. I know you are a very distinguished lawyer and I thought it might have escaped you. That is one of the reasons I advocated putting in this language in the Federal Firearms Act, because I think it is hazardous unless we spell out in very considerable detail that such people could not acquire these destructive devices.

Mr. JUNGROTH. My feeling would be, Senator, it does fall more properly in that realm with appropriate language being used in that

area.

Chairman DODD. The second question, again, and I do have great respect for you as a lawyer-something you said in your statement about the folly of prohibiting commerce in alcoholic beverages and that it taught us a great lesson.

As a lawyer, a distinguished lawyer, you realize, of course, that the Volstead Act prohibited the manufacture, commerce in and consun.p tion of

Mr. JUNGROTH. That is right; it was outright prohibition.

Chairman DODD. Let me finish-of beverages. You do not imply that the bill I introduced does that with respect to guns, do you? Mr. JUNGROTH. No; I do not, Senator.

Chairman DODD. It does not prohibit the manufacture nor the use of.

Mr. JUNROTH. I would agree.

Chairman DODD. I think that is a lame analogy, if I may say so.

Mr. JUNGROTH. Perhaps so, but you see, we are worried about this being the nose under the tent, so to speak, and we would prefer to have it handled in the manner we support.

Chairman DODD. I am fearful of people hearing statements about the prohibition experience.

Mr. JUNGROTH. I wouldn't suggest they do.

Chairman DODD. None of these bills goes that far.

The last question I would like to ask has to do with your reference to the fact that violent acts are committed by a number of weapons or misuse of weapons. Are you aware that the FBI says that the gun is seven times more deadly than all other weapons combined?

Mr. JUNGROTH. I would have to disagree with that statement. I would say a bottle filled with gasoline, lighted and thrown into a crowd, would be far more deadly than a firearm.

Chairman DODD. Of course, they are talking about their experience in law enforcement. That is what they say. From their experience the gun is seven times more deadly than any other weapon that is used.

Mr. JUNGROTH. I suppose that is an opinion. If you are dead, you are dead, I guess. It doesn't make much difference how it is done.

Chairman DODD. Of course, they are talking about dead body count every year.

Senator HRUSKA. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid you would have to read just a little more of that statement before I would buy the proposition that the FBI says there are more dead bodies left laying with a long gun than with a pistol.

Chairman DODD. I did not say long gun.

Senator HRUSKA. I thought you said the long gun was more deadly than the other?

Chairman DODD. No, I did not say that. I just said guns.
Senator HRUSKA. Excuse me.

Mr. JUNGROTH. I have not seen the statistics, Senator.

Chairman DODD. I just wanted to call your attention to it. Several witnesses have brought up this point. I know that terrible harm can be done by the misuse of all kinds of weapons and devices. It is my understanding that we are driving, aiming at the weapon which is the most dangerous on the advice of law enforcement officials and this has only one purpose.

Anyway, thank you very much.

Senator HRUSKA. I have another question on that point. Of course, we know from the statistics, that of all the willful killings, only about 25 to 30 percent are cases where the shotgun or the rifle is used. The balance of them are pistols and revolvers. Those statistics are well substantiated in the FBI statistics. So when we get into the real offender, the real offender is the handgun and that is what 1853, S. 1853 purports to get at, is that not correct, Mr. Jungroth.

Mr. JUNGROTH. I believe this is correct, sir, and North Dakota, for example, has a very strict handgun law requiring a permit to purchase alone it has been on the books for many years I can't say how many-30 to 40 at any rate, so that it would be illegal under 1853 to ship a handgun into the State of North Dakota unless the purchaser had a permit issued by the local sheriff.

Chairman DODD. Who would the mail-order dealer send it to?
Mr. JUNGROTH. Who do we have it shipped to?

Chairman DODD. You, the purchaser?

Mr. JUNGROTH. The licensed dealer in Chicago can mail it to me. Chairman DODD. Montgomery Ward, Sears, Roebuck-I do not know all the mail-order houses, but I assume they have outlets in Nor Dakota.

Mr. JUNGROTH. There are some. Now, let's assume we have a mailorder house which does not have an outlet in North Dakota, and lieve me, we are a rural State with very little retail business.

Chairman DODD. You know, under S. 1, you can get a rifle or shotgun shipped to you with the affidavit provision via the mail-order

route.

Senator HRUSKA. Would you favor that type of procedure with shotgun or rifle?

Mr. JUNGROTH. I would think it superfluous and to talk to a ranch in North Dakota about an affidavit, he would say, "File one? I haven even got one." He wouldn't understand the term. I feel the approach of 1853 is correct, that if we need prohibition in shotguns and rifl our legislature would be the first to take care of it.

Chairman DODD. Do you think most of your fellow citizens in Nor Dakota buy long guns or handguns?

Mr. JUNGROTH. I would say very few handguns are sold in Nor Dakota.

Chairman DODD. By mail?

Mr. JUNGROTH. Any manner. Some, yes, but very limited. I don': believe the sportsmen are particularly interested. We are mainly in terested in shotguns and hunting, although there are target shoote with pistols.

Chairman DODD. Thank you, again, Mr. Jungroth.

Mr. JUNGROTH. I thank the committee for hearing me.

Chairman DODD. We will give very careful consideration to your testimony.

Mr. Foote?

Senator HRUSKA. May I introduce the next witness briefly?
Chairman DODD. Yes.

Senator HRUSKA. Mr. Frank Foote is from Axtell, Nebr., and is eng ployed by the Nebraska Game & Parks Commission. He has been a thorized to speak on behalf of Melvin Steen, who is director of the fish and game department. Mr. Steen has also authorized Mr. Foote to speak on his behalf in his capacity as president of the International Association of Game, Fish & Conservation Commissioners.

We had Mr. Foote as a witness last year and the year before. We welcome him back as a fresh and convincing voice from the State of Nebraska on this subject.

Chairman DODD. We are happy to have you here, Mr. Foote.

Mr. FOOTE. Thank you very much, Senator Hruska, and Chairman. Someone said brevity is the soul of humor.

I would ask that a portion of my written testimony, mainly the reso lutions of the International Association and the newspaper article at pended thereto, be added to the record and be considered as read. Chairman DODD. Yes.

STATEMENT OF FRANK FOOTE, APPEARING ON BEHALF OF MELVIN 0. STEEN, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GAME, FISH & CONSERVATION COMMISSIONERS

Mr. FOOTE. Mr. Chairman, my name is Frank Foote, of Axtell, Nebr. I am employed by the Nebraska Game & Parks Commission. Í am testifying today for, and at the specific request of, Mr. Melvin O. Steen of Lincoln, Nebr., president of the International Association of Game Fish & Conservation Commissioners. President Steen delegated this responsibility to me as he has pressing business in a Western State and could not testify here today.

The International Association of Game, Fish & Conservation Commissioners is an organization of the conservation and wildlife management agencies of all 50 of the United States and of seven Provinces of Canada, and of individuals active professionally and personally in the conservation-wildlife management fields. Membership is therefore of two classes, governmental and individual associate.

The association, founded in 1902 at Yellowstone Park, is the one clearinghouse and action agency in which interstate and international problems and opportunities in the field of wildlife management and conservation are considered, and appropriate action agreed to and pursued.

The international association is very concerned with Federal legislation which would impose unreasonable regulations on firearms acquired or used by sportsmen. While no general meeting of the association has been held since the introduction of S. 1 in the 90th Congress, the association has adopted pertinent resolutions which cover this subject and which are submitted herein.

RESOLUTION NO. 20-1965

Whereas, the International Association of Game, Fish and Conservation Commissioners has, by resolution, previously expressed its concern over antifirearms legislation which would impose unreasonable regulations on firearms acquired and used by sportsmen; and

Whereas, this year legislation has been introduced in the U.S. Congress which would deny to all sportsmen the right to purchase or acquire any firearm in interstate commerce; and

Whereas, this proposed legislation, S. 1592 by Senator Dodd, has been supported before the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency by its sponsor and by powerful government agencies who openly view with alarm the "ready availability of firearms" in the United States; and

Whereas, the sport of hunting and, through hunting, the conservation of wildlife is dependent on the ready availability of rifles and shotguns to American sportsmen, and

Whereas, reasonable legislation to control the acquisition of pistols and revolvers by juveniles, felons and mentally incompetent persons has been introduced in the Senate by Senator Hickenlooper and in the House of Representatives by Congressman Cecil King.

Now, therefore, be it resolved by the International Association of Game, Fish and Conservation Commissioners that we reaffirm the position of this Association as expressed in our Resolution No. 17 of 1964 and our disapproval of S. 1592, however it may be amended, because the philosophy of this bill is to promote the unavailability of all firearms rather than to selectively limit the acquisition of firearms by felons, juveniles or incompetents as does the KingHickenlooper bill.

Be it further resolved that copies of this Resolution be sent to all members of the Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate and all members of the Ways and Means Committee of the United States House of Representatives.