gun is not the real offender. People cannot climb up a fire escape and break into a dwelling lugging their shotgun or rifle with them; or hold up people in an apartment, or in an alley or street. They do not do that. So, I say that the number of offenders using long guns would be such a small proportion of those who lawfully, legally and beneficially use the long gun, that we should not interfere with the traffic in that line of guns except on a State or local basis. Chairman DODD. Let me respond to that. I am not suggesting that we are belittling it. Senator HRUSKA. I am sure you did not intend that. Chairman DODD. There have been those who I thought might minimize in and belittle it. Let me say this for the record, that we subpenaed the file of Klein's Sporting Goods Store in Chicago. That is a reputable and respected firm in the business of selling mail-order firearms. From the subpenaed files and I repeat, it is a respectable, reputable concern-we found, in cooperation with local police around the country, that mail-order rifles and shotguns have been delivered by that reputable company to many persons with criminal records, all the way from Chicago, Dallas, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Jersey, New York. It was not just a little bit. It was a substantial percentage. This was one of the reasons that I wrote into the bill which I introduced, and I am sure it is not peculiar to Klein's. The crimes of these purchasers range from misdemeanors, felonies, assault, battery, larceny, homicide -the whole gamut really of crimes of violence. That is why it was put in. It seems to me that we are inclined not to take it as seriously as we should. That is all. Mr. FOOTE. Senator Dodd, I am as interested in saving time as anyone, but may I very respectfully ask a question here in this case for information? You indicated that rifles and shotguns had been mailed by the Klein's mail-order firm and received by people convicted of various crimes, including felons. Chairman DODD. Yes, and later crimes were committed. This is where Oswald got his gun. Mr. FOOTE. Yes, sir. Chairman DODD. You know this fellow Whitman I think got his just as easily. By the way, neither Oswald nor Whitman had much difficulty concealing those long guns. Senator HRUSKA. Yet Oswald could have gone within six blocks from where he sat and bought a gun, the same identical gun Chairman DODD. That's not the point. He didn't go there. Senator HRUSKA. You talked about availability. Your bill doesn't provide that they cannot sell rifles like that in Texas or any other State. Chairman DODD. No; no, I wasn't talking about availability. I was talking about concealment. I thought I heard you say-I understood you to say that you can see a fellow walking down the street with a rifle or shotgun, and Oswald certainly wasn't seen and Whitman wasn't seen, and there have been a lot of people that are not seen. And I think this adds to our problem. These are not entirely unconcealable by any means. Senator HRUSKA. Mr. Chairman, I don't know of anyone who has contended that crimes are not committed with long guns, that they cannot be committed with long guns. No one has contended that. Of course they are. But 70 percent are committed by handguns. And the long gun doesn't lend itself that way to a commission of crime. It will be used, of course, but there are more people killed in automobile accidents than there are killed with guns every year. Mr. FOOTE. Senator Dodd, to briefly finish my question, I am asking information. Were not these felons that received rifles and shotguns from Klein's in violation of the present Federal Firearms Act and were they not prosecuted therefor? Chairman DODD. I think they were. I think that's the whole point. Mr. FOOTE. Isn't it a violation for a convicted felon for a crime of more than 1 year to receive any firearm in interstate commerce? Chairman DODD. You see, the point is that persons with a record of conviction sign some kind of statement-by the way, I don't want to emphasize Klein's. It could be any other company. Mr. FOOTE. Sure. I understand. Chairman DODD. And they completely nullified the law. Senator HRUSKA. But they couldn't, under the provisions of the Hruska bill, without notice to their chiefs of police because a check would be run on them, and they would be disclosed to be convicts, and there they are. Chairman DODD. As I said to Senator Hruska, I don't think this bill covers long guns. We are talking about the long guns not handguns. So it wouldn't do anything for us on this long-gun problem. Mr. FOOTE. Senator Dodd, in this check that was made of these convicted felons that did receive long guns in violation of the present Federal Firearms Act, was there any indication of action taken against them by Federal authorities? I ask this question for information, sir. Chairman DODD. Well, you see, there is the matter of proof and these people give phony names and addresses. You just can't catch up with them. Lots of these mail-order deliveries are made to vacant lots, places where there are billboards. You ask, how do they get delivered. Well, the criminal goes to the Railway Express office, and he picks it up. That's what's been going on in this country, and it is substantially involves the long gun. And I say unless we do something about it we are going to have an increasing problem. That is the philosophy behind it. That is the reason for it. That is the rationale of it. I don't guess I can convince you of that. You are obviously a well-informed man in the field. Anyway, I am very grateful to you for the time. Mr. FOOTE. Thank you very much. Senator HRUSKA. Thank you, Mr. Foote. Mr. Gutermuth is the vice president of the Wildlife Management Institute, and he served as vice president for many years-I think since 1946-and he is also the secretary and a trustee of the North American Wildlife Foundation and the treasurer and a trustee of the World Wildlife Fund. And he serves as a director of the National Rifle Association-a very distinguished citizen. We are glad you are here. Mr. GUTERMUTH. Mr. Chairman, if my statement may be entered as read in its entirely Chairman DODD. Yes, of course. STATEMENT OF C. R. GUTERMUTH, VICE PRESIDENT, WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT INSTITUTE Mr. GUTERMUTH. I will skip reading portions of it because, as most of the members know, I have testified heretofore and also in the House. Many of the things that are in my statement have been said over and over again in the hearings and certainly there is no purpose in wasting the time of this committee by repeating them. I think that I will start out by saying that we not only apprecise this invitation to testify, but that we are in full support of S. 185 and S. 1854. We have worked, as the chairman knows, with this committee for a number of years to try to secure the enactment of some modest approach to the control of firearms in the hands of the criminal ele ment, and we hope that before too much delay some sensible measure like S. 1853 can be enacted. And as far as I am concerned, it has bor a mystery to me for a long time-since in all of these hearings that I have attended there has been full support for the control of the destructive devices, I cannot understand why that measure hasn't moved out and been enacted, because, to my knowledge, there has been no opposition to the control of destructive devices which should be kept out of the hands of practically everyone. Chairman DODD. Well, I think you have got a good point, and I don't know anyone who is on the other side. Mr. GUTERMUTH. I am going to drop back to page 6, Mr. Chairman, in my statement, to where I say: Before concluding, I want to comment on the role of the hunter-sportsman in this country's wildlife conservation efforts. Each State has a fish and wildlife department, and more than 99 percent of the money available for wildlife law enforcement, research, management, land acquisition, development. and other necessary programs is obtained from the sale of hunting licenses and permits. Less than 1 percent of the money for these essential activities comes from general revenues in any State. In addition, the hunter-shooter indirectly pays the manufacturers excise tax of 11 percent on sporting arms and ammunition. This amounted to more than $25 million during the last year of record. Under the terms of the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act of 1937, this money is credited to a special fund in the U.S. Treasury and subsequently allocated under a matching-grants formula to the States for approved wildlife restoration projects. There were more than 14,350,000 paid hunting license holders in the United States in 1966, the latest year of record. The actual num ber of hunters is at least 20 percent greater than that, however, be cause landowners, tenants, veterans, and certain others are not required to buy licenses in some States. The gross cost to hunters of all licenses, tags, and permits was more than $77 million in 1966. This brought to a total of more than $1 billion that hunters have contributed to essential wildlife work since recordkeeping began in 1923. In addition, the total excise taxes col lected on sporting arms and ammunition since the Pittman-Robertson Act was enacted in 1937 have reached about $350 million. Many sportsmen also buy the $3 migratory bird hunting stamp, the so-called duck stamp, issued by the Federal Government, the proceeds of which are used to purchase and develop wet lands and refuges necessary for the preservation of ducks, geese, and other migratory birds. I mention this, Mr. Chairman, to point out that the hunter-shooter has had a prominent role in protecting America's wildlife. Without his contribution there would be no way to buy and develop land for wildlife, to provide law enforcement, and to conduct research to gain knowledge with which to blunt the mounting impact of man's pollution and destruction of wildlife habitat. We must make sure that the rules and regulations that are adopted in an effort to curb crime do not so inconvenience and discourage sportsmen that wildlife restoration programs fail to get necessary financing. In addition, there is a tremendous national industry involved in supplying products, outdoor goods, and services to hunters. In conclusion, I repeat that sportsmen are not opposed to reasonable steps to reduce armed crime wherever possible. They know this cannot be accomplished as swiftly and as easily as some people are willing to believe. Sportsmen have seen the discouraging results of too many local experiments. As I brought out earlier in my testimony here, we have not had adequate enforcement of the Federal Firearms Act and the National Firearms Act, which have been on the books for many, many years. So in concluding, let me say these sportsmen know, too, that eight out of 10 serious crimes that take place are committed by repeaters, who already have had one or more brushes with the law. They read about the penologists who advocate early release, parole, and short sentences for criminals as a means of alleviating demands for new prison construction and present overcrowded conditions. We feel that S. 1853 should be enacted. As a final thing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to request unanimous consent to enter into the record this photocopy of an editorial on page 1 of the July-August 1967 issue of Massachusetts Wildlife. And, Senator Kennedy, I hope you take a look at this. It is signed by the State fish and game directors and conservation commissioners in all of the Northeastern States of Maine, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont. I will read a couple of short whereases, Mr. Chairman: Whereas, Senate Bill #1 (Amendment 90) and House Bill 5384 presently under consideration in Congress are so worded as to leave no doubt that their eventual effect if passed will be to drastically reduce numbers of sporting firearms in the possession of law-abiding citizens, through discouragement arising from complex procedures, potential for arbitrary use of authority and restriction of reasonable purchase, which will result in a decrease in funds available from sale of hunting licenses and federal taxes on firearms and ammunition. And therefore, The directors and commissioners for the fish and game agencies of the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island, having special concern for the pressures brought to bear on land, water and wildlife resources in these states due to concentration of population in and contiguous to the New England area, do resolve that Senate Bill #1 (Amendment 90) and House Bill 5384 are extremely objectionable, unwise and misdirected. It goes on, and I trust it can be included. With that, Mr. Chairman, I will conclude by saying that the things brought out in my statement of the contribution the sportsmen of this country are making to the wildlife management programs of this country is brought out by these six officials in the Northeastern States, and, of course, it has been brought out in others, such as Mr. Glassen. I am quite concerned about the fact that we do not get going with some reasonable control of the mail-order sales of concealable weapons, and that we do not stop the traffic in destructive devices. And I hope that it will be done by amendments to our longstanding Federal Firearms Act and National Firearms Act, because they are on the books and would take only slight modifications. S. 1853 and S. 1854 would do it. Thank you very much. Chairman DODD. Thank you again for your time and your testi mony. I recall your prior appearances here, and we have always four] your testimony of interest and value. I do not say we all agree with it. but it is certainly an intelligent viewpoint, and we want to know about it. Senator Hruska? Senator KENNEDY. No questions. Chairman DODD. I only have one observation. I do not speak for anybody but myself, but I know the fish and game commissioner in Connecticut. I know the chairman of it particularly well. I know what his attitude, or their attitude is. I am sure it is what you said it is of others as well. But I am more respectful of the opinion of our State police commissioner and our law enforcement officers with respect to this problem. I am not disrespectful of the fish and game commission. but every law enforcement officer in Connecticut, I believe every one I heard from anyway-is for this bill, and I am fearful that our fi-h and game people do not take all the factors into consideration. Mr. GUTERMUTH. Mr. Chairman, I happen to have served under three Governors in the State of Indiana, as the director of fish and game many years ago, and I had a statewide enforcement organization under my supervision and direction. Subsequently and during the war. since I was too old to get into the Armed Forces, I also happened to be the chief enforcement officer in the Office of Price Administration in the State of Indiana, and I have never known throughout my entire lifetime any other viewpoint or attitude on the part of our enfor e ment officers, except to try to get the strictest kind of laws with which they can crack down in the simplest way possible. And I do not believe, as has been brought out time and again before this committee, that this is the kind of thing that we want in America. I just cannot believe that the people are willing to accept drastic controls, at least. not until they are shown that such controls are absolutely necessary. We have a serious crime condition in this country. It is deplorable. And, incidently, when I hear this discussion of the Gallup poll-of course, I could smile a little and say that some people have believed too much in those polls. That has been proved in our elections back over the years, and, of course, if they take a poll in the large metropolitan centers where, as in New York, as was brought out yesterday, out of 8 million people only 1,700 of them, or something like that-I do no know the exact figure Senator HRUSKA. 17,000. Mr. GUTERMUTH. 17,000 can have a gun, and can get a permit to have one. Of course, they are scared stiff now. If you ask the right kind of |