average car insurance rates, and usually gets a better trade-in allowance on his used car because it hasn't been abused or damaged.

And, believe it or not, Mr. Chairman, the traffic laws and the penalties for breaking them in any State I have heard of, are aimed right at the "nut who holds the wheel," the man who misuses his privileges as a driver, and who is a menace to responsible people, and who endangers their lives.

Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of this committee, this is exactly the type of treatment honest, reasonable, law-abiding arms collectors, hunters and target shooters want, and will support in firearms control. Thank you.

Senater HRUSKA. Mr. Shumaker, it is very obvious you have spent a lot of study and thought in drafting this statement. It is a fine contribution to our record. I think it is the most comprehensive statement of the State bills of rights that we have received in my recollection. Thank you very much for making it, and we will add it to that special category of the testimony from the gun collector's association. Mr. SHUMAKER. Thank you. Are there any other questions? Senator HRUSKA. Mr. Perian has a question.

Mr. PERIAN. Mr. Shumaker, I just wondered, for the record, do you feel any of the legislation this subcommittee is considering violates the Constitution?

Mr. SHUMAKER. Mr. Perian, let's go back to the very fact that when the country was formed, the Constitution was drawn by a lot of lawyers, but it was the people that had to ratify it, and it was the people who made the Bill of Rights.

We feel that there are things in the bills which are being considered which are unconstitutional. We feel that this is an infringement upon our rights.

Does that answer your question?

Mr. PERIAN. Well now, are you referring to all the bills? As long as you feel that some of them would violate the Constitution, I wish you could identify them.

Mr. SHUMAKER. Well, let's just put it this way. I am going to be very blunt about it, and I suppose I will get a lot of people down my

back.

Of the two or three under consideration, definitely Mr. Hruska's is to be accepted, and we would support it. But we very frankly feel this way. It is like having a bellyache. You can cut your throat and get rid of the bellyache, or by another means, you might take a very heavy dose of castor oil, and this we think is Mr. Hruska's bill. W feel that there is something that can be done, that should be done, and it must not be that the majority should wear the hair shirt, or the minority. We are just getting a little bit fed up about that.

Mr. PERIAN. Do you feel that his bill infringes on the rights of peo ple to purchase and bear and own arms?

Mr. SHUMAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. PERIAN. In other words, what you are saying is you are accepting it as the lesser of two evils?

Mr. SHUMAKER. That is correct.

Mr. PERIAN. Thank you, Mr. Shumaker.

Senator HRUSKA. Is the existing Federal Firearms Act and the National Firearms Act in violation of the Constitution?

Mr. SHUMAKER. I understand there is even some question about that, Mr. Hruska.

Senator HRUSKA. Not in the minds of the Supreme Court, is there? Mr. SHUMAKER. Evidently not, and I believe that generally speaking we are perfectly willing to go along with those. We feel that those are reasonable things to ask.

Senator HRUSKA. Thank you very much again. You have given us a lot of food for thought here.

Now, Mr. Neal Knox of the Gun Week newspaper.

Mr. Knox, your entire statement will be placed in the record, and you can skip read it or you may summarize it at your leisure, and your choice, just as long as the choice that you take alternatively will not amount to more time than would be taken if you read the whole state

ment.

STATEMENT OF NEAL KNOX, EDITOR, GUN WEEK NEWSPAPER Mr. KNOX. Thank you sir. I will try to hit some of the high spots. This has been a very long, tiring day for all of us.

But getting to the subject at hand, the proponents of the administration bill would have the public believe that prohibitive gun laws will reduce crime. They have produced reams of opinion to substantiate their case, but very few facts.

Most of their facts rely on the broad generalization that crime rates-particularly murder rates are highest in areas with minimal gun laws, yet this claim cannot withstand close scrutiny. It fails to take into account the socioeconomic factors which directly relate to crime-while the existence or lack of gun laws does not.

There have been many facts or statistics put before this committee. Generally, they rely on the percentage of murders committed with firearms. For instance, when the chairman of this committee, Senator Dodd, introduced S. 1, Amendment 90, he compared New York with a low 32 percent of its murders with guns, to Nebraska with a high percentage, 70 percent of its murders with guns. What his researchers failed to tell him was that in 1965 Nebraska had a total murder rate of 2.4 per 100,000 residents, while the published rate for New York was almost twice as high-4.6 per 100,000-and the actual murder rate was even higher.

In considering this argument, this type of argument to percentage of murders, the chairman's researchers failed to indicate that Vermont had the highest percentage of murders committed with firearms; 100 percent were with firearms, but this amounted to only seven murders in a total of 4 years. Vermont had, as has been pointed out, the lowest murder rate in the Nation in 1965-one-half of 1 percent. And I might add at this point that yesterday when Senator Church compared Alabama to Vermont, the chairman made the statement that Vermont was an exception in having minimal controls and minimal crime. He said, roughly, that this exception did not hold true, that the other areas which had strict crime, gun controls had a reduced amount of crime. This is not true.

There are a smaller percentage of murders committed with crime but there are not necessarily murders where you have tight gun laws, and the FBI statistics will bear this out.

We could make several instances. They are in the record; no sense in repeating them. But one thing that is worth noting is that the very examples that the advocates of this bill have given as to good gun laws and I am using their phrase-compared to lax gun laws. The cities wit good gun laws, by his definition, have shown increases in crime r recent years while the very same ones that he has condemned for lax gun laws have shown decreases.

Now, if there is a relationship between the availability of guns o the strictness of gun laws, it should not work that way. If the availability of guns had anything to do with crime, Utah should have the highest crime rate in the Nation, but it does not. They have four guns per home, according to a recent survey in the State of Utah, and yet they have a murder rate of only 1.5 per 100,000.

It might be interesting to note that they have 72 percent of their murders committed with guns but this is only 15 murders per year on the average.

Why the lack of relationship? Because the things that contribute to crime are the social conditions, the economic conditions, the edu cational levels and the many things that are in the front of the FBI book, the uniform crime reports which state the reasons for crime.

And as Senator Dodd said earlier today speaking to the chairman— or, correction, to Mr. Orth of the NRA, he pointed out then, he said. "You have got these reasons for crime. Why not have availability of firearms as one of the reasons in your booklet?" The NRA took that information directly from the FBI crime reports, and they are no

there.

It is on the front page, I believe. You were looking at it, Mr. Perian.

Mr. PERIAN. I am sorry. I did not hear you.

Mr. KNOX. I say you were looking there. I thought perhaps that is what you were looking for.

Mr. PERIAN. Oh, I know the page. It is right up front.

Mr. KNOX. Right.

Mr. PERIAN. Back on pages 6, 7, and 8, and for several pages, J. Edgar Hoover devotes a great deal of discussion to the role that firearms play in crime. The NRA and the Wildlife Federation and so forth, usually never get past the second page where they listMr. KNOX. I have read those pages.

Mr. PERIAN (continuing). Twelve factors, social-economic factors that have to do with the living conditions, job conditions, et cetera, not with the artifacts of crime. The gun is the only weapon that was given a special section in the FBI report as an important causal factor in crime.

Mr. KNOX. Right.

Mr. PERIAN. J. Edgar Hoover put out a special brochure on guns ar!

crime.

I think I should say in defense of the chairman that yesterday this is the idea he was referring to, and he was not referring to total crime in Vermont. Either it wasn't made clear or you misunderstood. Mr. KNOX. I think that I understood him to say

Mr. PERIAN. Well, what he was talking about was just firearms, 11: was actually referring to this chart developed by J. Edgar Hoover. Mr. KNOX. I cannot see it from here but I believe that refers to the percentages; does it not?

Mr. PERIAN. That is correct.

Mr. KNOX. Well, this is just my point; that the percentages of murders committed with guns have no relationship to the total number of murders.

The problem that we are facing is crime, reducing the number of murders; not reducing the number of murders with a gun.

Mr. PERIAN. Well, the point that J. Edgar Hoover-and I am just quoting Hoover-in the areas with strict gun controls

Mr. KNOX. Granted.

Mr. PERIAN (continuing). You have a lower percentage of murder by gun.

Mr. KNOX. Right. That is true. But you have a lower percentage of total murder? You do not?

Mr. PERIAN. Have you read these figures?

Mr. KNOX. Well, let's take a look at New York. We have had some testimony about New York City and the effectiveness of the Sullivan law, both sides. It has been frequently pointed out how effective the Sullivan law is; but early this year the new police commissionerMr. PERIAN. I do not think anyone has pointed out how effective it is. This committee has always referred to the fact that the opponents of this gun bill

Mr. KNOX. Refer to it as the China boy.

Mr. PERIAN (continuing). Refer to it as ineffective. How can you prove it is ineffective?

Mr. Knox. I will give you an example, Mr. Perian.

The chairman a few months ago, at the time of introducing some statistics concerning this-I take it back. I believe it was on February 9 when he was introducing Amendment 90. At that time he referred to our, speaking of the gun fraternities, dislike of the Sullivan law; and yet he pointed out at the time that it had some 25 percent of its murders committed with firearms while the rest of the Nation, as we know, had a much higher percentage. But the commissioner this spring said that New York City's reports to the FBI had not been truthful; that the actual murder rate was much higher, the actual armed robbery rate was many times higher.

Just as a for instance, there were 100

Mr. PERIAN. Are you sitting there and telling us there are dead bodies with bullet holes, in New York City, that have not been counted?

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir. In 1965, Federal firearms-I mean as you were. The 1965 FBI crime report is not accurate by the statement of Police Commissioner Leary. I have a copy of a press release

Mr. PERIAN. How inaccurate is it?

Mr. KNOX. What?

Mr. PERIAN. How inaccurate is it?

Mr. Knox. I do not know. I will give you his figures here.

If you will look in the FBI crime report for last year-you have got a copy of 1965-I think you will see that, what is it, 51, the murder rate in New York City. According to Commissioner Leary, the actual murder rate in 1956 was 8.4 per 100,000. Mayor Lindsay said this was a-that they have only had a 6.5 percent or roughly minor increase. They figured this up on a sliding scale basis.

82-646-67- -43

The Borough of Manhattan, acocrding to the New York City Police Department, had a 15.13 murder rate. This is three times, roughly, the national average. They had 184 murders with handguns in New York City.

Now, this is a small percentage of the total murders committed wit guns. I do not see it right here in front of me. It was roughly 30 percent But of those 184 murders with handguns, not one of those handgur. was licensed, and New York City has a higher handgun murder rate than the national average despite the Sullivan law.

Now, if these controls work, I would like to see evidence that they work. I am not talking about an opinion of anyone because I can so why a man would have this opinion, but I would want to see it in actual effect.

We have heard about Philadelphia. I want to see it in Philadelphia: crime statistics, showing up that there are fewer murders. I have nor seen it. When I do, I might change my opinion of this.

Mr. PERIAN. Did you hear Mr. Gomberg's testimony?

Mr. Knox. No, I did not get to hear that. I wish that I had been here. I heard roughly what he had to say, a synopsis of it.

Mr. PERIAN. He said that 220 persons were denied the purcha permit for weapons

Mr. KNOX. I am delighted to know that.

Mr. PERIAN (continuing). Because they had criminal records. I you think this is bad?

Mr. KNOX. I would be more impressed by the Philadelphia gun law if they could show me that their total number of murders were down. I know I received the other day a report for the first 3 months of 1967-that there were some 50 murders in Philadelphia, 56, I believe :1 was, compared to 31 last year. You gentlemen have copies, I am sure, of the FBI crime reports for 1966, which would give us the total figures. I do not have it so I cannot comment on them.

Mr. PERIAN. I think you will find if you check that one of the dif ficulties with Commissioner Leary's figures is the fact that he used the 1960 census in New York City as the basis for computing his rate. We computed ours on the 1965 census.

Mr. Knox. He is using 8 million.

Mr. PERIAN. Well, there were several hundred thousand more peo ple in 1965. It actually dropped the average down. This was thoroughly discussed in the testimony of the witness from the district attorney's office in Queens County, Mr. Frederick Ludwig.

Mr. KNOX. I am just going by 8 million, which is what he stated that they were based on, and I do not think that the population of New York City has materially changed for some years.

Mr. PERIAN. Well, I am just telling you that it has changed over a 5-year period. It increased.

Mr. KNOX. Well, be that as it may, there is still a great deal more crime in New York City than has been previously reported and they do have a high handgun murder rate.

Mr. PERIAN. Mr. Knox, it has been cited by Mr. Gomberg rela:: to the administration of the Philadelphia ordinance, that 220 personwere denied permits.

Senator HRUSKA. Is that a pertinent statistic? In order to make i pertinent would not the evidence have to go a little further and say