And so the pattern goes. Civil disorder and disobedience running rampant, aided and abetted by the Federal Government which has delayed action on necessary firearms legislation for 32 years.

I believe everyone has read the newspapers and listened to other news media and knows what happened there. The point is that these criminal elements, as I have described them, move into these tragic situations, use these weapons, shoot at firemen and law enforcement officers and at private citizens. It seems to me that this is abundant proof that this country had better face up to this firearm situation and do something about it.

There are many other things to be done. I am not suggesting that this alone will solve all our problems. But there is one little thing we can do. I hope we can get it done when we get through with these hearings as soon as we can.

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman?

Chairman Dodd. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY. As I understand, the Treasury Department has made a 1-day spot check of some 56 different dealers in the New YorkDelaware-Virginia-Maryland area, and they found there were some 690 purchases of weapons, both long guns and shotguns, by New Jersey residents during the period before the Newark disorders. As we know, New Jersey has a strict firearms law. If we had the passage of the bill which we are considering in hearings now, which you have introduced we know that they would have had to be in compliance with the New Jersey law and obviously it would have made it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the purchasers of these weapons to make those purchases.

I think once again, it substantiates, supports the fundamental reasons for this kind of legislation.

Chairman DODD. I think you are right. I think that is a very good point. I did not know about the check. It is important information for this subcommittee at this time.

Senator Thurmond?

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, I am not exactly in accord with your statement or that of the Senator from Massachusetts. I feel there are more deep, basic, underlying causes here. I will not take time to go into them now. But criminals are going to get firearms and I do not think we ought to disarm our own people, our own population. I do think that we ought to have a Federal law to assist the States to enforce their laws. If the State of Michigan does not have a law that is adequate now, they can pass one. Then the Federal Government will cooperate with them. But I think this matter ought to be left to each State, and I think the Federal Government can be very helpful in the matter of assisting the States in the matter of interstate transportation. If it is within the State, of course the State can enforce the law. If it is interstate, then the Federal Government can enforce the law.

I am in thorough accord with your statement with regard to the purposes and the motives of this legislation. There is just a different means that I would approach it from. I am sure you can understand my feeling on it.

Chairman DODD. I do. I do not think we are so far apart, actually The real purpose of the bill I introduced is just that, to get control of interstate traffic of firearms, which the States cannot do for themselves.

Well, thank you.

Our first witness this morning is the Honorable David E. McGiffert, Under Secretary of the Army. Mr. McGiffert has been Assistant to the Secretary of Defense in Charge of Legislative Affairs since 1962. He was appointed Under Secretary of the Army in November 1965. He is a distinguished American, and we are very anxious to hear him. Mr. McGiffert is accompanied by Lt. Col. Joseph B. Berry, Acting Director of Civilian Marksmanship, National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice.

Gentlemen, we are glad to see you and glad you could come here. We are anxious to hear what you have to say.

STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID E. McGIFFERT, UNDER SECRETARY OF THE ARMY, ACCOMPANIED BY LT. COL. JOSEPH B. BERRY, ACTING DIRECTOR OF CIVILIAN MARKSMANSHIP, NATIONAL BOARD FOR THE PROMOTION OF RIFLE PRACTICE

Mr. McGIFFERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am happy to present to you today the views of the Department of Defense on the proposed amendment of the Federal Firearms Act, submitted by the President and introduced in the Senate on February 9, 1967, as an amendment to S. 1. For convenience, I shall refer to the President's proposal as the S. 1 amendment.

Chairman DODD. I am sorry to interrupt you. You may paraphrase or do anything you want with your statement. It will all be put in the record, so do not feel bound to read all of it. If you want to depart from it, do that, or go beyond it; do anything you want to do with it. Mr. McGIFFERT. Thank you, sir.

In the past 22 years the Department of Defense has repeatedly advised the Congress that it favors enactment of the President's firearms control legislation. As the Secretary of Defense stated in a letter dated April 30, 1965:

More realistic control of the distribution of firearms in the stream of commerce between the States and between the United States and foreign states is clearly in our best national interest.

The then Secretary of the Army, Stephen Ailes, testified before this subcommittee on May 19, 1965, and stated, "The Department of Defense strongly recommends enactment" of the President's bill. He added:

We support the President's views concerning the need for additional control on the importation and distribution of firearms.

On behalf of the Department of Defense, I reiterated that position on April 18 of this year in a letter to Chairman Celler of the House Committee on the Judiciary. I repeat it to this subcommittee today. We favor prompt enactment of the S. 1 amendment. As Secretary McNamara said last month:

The absence of sensible gun control legislation is not only unreasonable; it is an open and permanent invitation to violance and disorder.

The primary executive branch responsibility for assessing the effectiveness of the proposed firearms control as they relate to crime problems rests, of course, with the Treasury Department-which will have regulatory and investigatory jurisdiction-and with the Depart

ment of Justice, which will be responsible for prosecuting offenders However, we have examined the S. 1 amendment to determine its impact on the national defense. Our conclusion is that its enactment is consistent with the national defense and will in no way impair any function of the Department of Defense or the miliary services.

It has been alleged that S. 1 amended would adversely affect the civilian marksmanship program administered by the Department of the Army. This, however, is not the case. As Secretary Ailes testified more than 2 years ago, enactment of a firearms law similar to the S. 1 amendment would merely lead to some minor adjustments in the civilian marksmanship program's administrative procedures, adjustments which we are quite willing to make and which will not interfere with the program.

To show how these adjustments can be made, I will briefly describe the operation of the civilian marksmanship program, and the effect upon this program of the proposed firearms control bill. I will then address the remainder of my statement to certain questions about the program raised in the Chairman's letter of May 16, 1967, to Secretary McNamara. These relate to the problem of controls and safeguards, to the results of a study of the program commissioned 2 years ago, and to the overall impact of the program on the national defense posture.

The civilian marksmanship program was established by a series of acts of Congress, beginning in 1903. The statute, now contained in sections 4307 through 4313 of title 10, United States Code, assigns responsibility for the program to the Secretary of the Army, assisted by a National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. By designation of the Secretary of the Army, the Under Secretary serves as President of the National Board. The Board consists of a maximum of 25 members appointed by the Secretary of the Army and includes representatives of the three military departments, the Coast Guard. the Armed Forces Reserve components, the Department of the Interior, and the country at large. Representatives of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare and the Department of Justice will be added as vacancies occur. The President's budget for the present fiscal year includes $428,000 for the expenses of the Board and the Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM). Certain additional expenses attributable to the program, such as those for ammunition issued free of charge to DCM clubs and for the national matches, and for personnel supporting the national matches, bring the total cost to more than $4 million annually.

The principal activities of the civilian marksmanship program are to (1) promote small arms practice among citizens who are not members of the Armed Forces or any Reserve component, (2) hold small arms competitions, and (3) issue, loan, or sell small arms, ammunition, and targets necessary for this program. The programs are administered by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, who is organizationally located in the office of the Under Secretary.

As you know, Mr. Chairman, Colonel Berry, on my left, is presently Acting Director of Civilian Marksmanship.

Chairman DODD. Yes.

Mr. McGIFFERT. The promotion of rifle and pistol practice is ac. complished primarily through supporting civilian rifle and pistol clubs and schools enrolled with the DCM. On May 31 of this year

there were 5,944 enrolled clubs with a total membership of 384,732. The clubs are of three main types-senior clubs, composed of members 19 years of age and over; junior clubs, composed of members between 12 and 18 years of age supervised by an adult; and clubs affiliated with colleges or with schools. In addition, the DCM provides support to those colleges and schools which include marksmanship in their curricula.

To be eligible for DCM enrollment, the senior and junior clubs must have 10 or more civilian members. Junior clubs must also have a certified adult instructor. All clubs must have access to adequate range facilities and must agree to conduct marksmanship training for 9 months of the year. Each club must execute an affidavit of compliance with the nondiscrimination provision of title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The Army supports the clubs by free distribution of a limited quantity of ammunition and by issuing .30-caliber rifles, .22-caliber rifles, and .45-caliber pistols on a loan basis. The weapons are issued to clubs on a ratio of approximately one for every 10 members. Currently, the total of weapons on loan is about 38,000. The clubs are responsible for the safety and care of these weapons. Ammunition is issued once a year on the basis of the number of eligible members in the club who have fired approved marksmanship qualification courses during the previous year.

The law also states that the Secretary of the Army:

Shall provide for ** the sale to members of the National Rifle Association, at cost *** of the arms, ammunition, targets, and other supplies and appliances necessary for target practice.

Weapons and ammunition sold have, of course, been determined to be in excess of the Government's needs. The principal type of weapons sold under the sales program are .30-caliber M-1 carbines and .45caliber pistols. Under the Army's policy, no more than one weapon of each type may be sold to one person.

With the passage of the proposed legislation before you, the civilian marksmanship program can continue to be carried out in the manner just described. As you know, the S. 1 amendment would prohibit all shipments of firearms in interstate commerce except shipments between federally licensed manufacturers or dealers or, by virtue of the general exemption of section 925 (a) of the bill, shipments between agencies of the U.S. Government or State or local governments. A sale or other distribution of a firearm to an individual, therefore, can take place only within a State and not through interstate shipment. Accordingly, we intend to modify our present practice of distributing firearms directly to gun clubs and individual purchasers by interstate shipment.

Under the modified procedure, the distribution of firearms to clubs and purchasers under the program will take place only within the individual States. Upon approval of an application for loan or sale, the Army would ship the requested firearms to the U.S. property and fiscal officer in the State in which the club or purchaser is located. This officer is a Federal officer whose function is to maintain accountability of Federal property issued for the use of the National Guard in the State. Such an interstate shipment between agencies of the U.S. Government would be free from the general prohibition on in

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terstate shipments contained in the bill. Upon receipt of the firearms from the Army, the property and fiscal officer would distribute them to the clubs or purchasers within the State. This procedural change will not affect the basic operation of the marksmanship program. It will not result in any significant increase in cost to the Government. The S. 1 amendment would also place certain limitations on the activities of each federally licensed manufacturer or dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms within a State. For example, the dealer may dispose of firearms only to an individual who is 21 years old (or 18 years old in the case of purchase of a shotgun or rifle), who has complied with all applicable State and local laws, who is a resident of the State (except in the case of purchase of a shotgun or rifle), and who is free of conviction or pending indictment for a serious crime. The Army now requires and will continue to require observance of all these limitations before authorizing any disposition of weapons under the civilian marksmanship program.

The Treasury Department, which would have the major regulatory responsibility under the proposed bill, has confirmed to us that the bill's provisions would be met by a shipment of firearms or ammunition following the procedure I have just described.

In summary, the civilian marksmanship program can continue to be effectively administered and in consonance with the provisions of the proposed law.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn now to the additional points raised in your letter to Secretary McNamara, which relate to the operation of the civilian marksmanship program in general. First, you expressed interest in the problem of safeguards and controls over the disposition of firearms and ammunition under the program. This is an area to which we have devoted a great deal of attention in recent months. Changes have been made in our procedures, and we are keeping this aspect of the program under continuing careful scrutiny. Our procedures for screening individuals seeking to purchase weapons under the civilian marksmanship program are as follows:

First, the names of the prospective purchasers are turned over to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the Treasury Department, which is responsible for investigations of violations of the firearms laws. The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division examines its records. and also checks the names with local law enforcement authorities. If the local authorities raise an objection to sale of a weapon to a partieular individual, their views will be fully considered along with other information concerning the individual. In some cases, further investigation may be required. Any other information developed by the Treasury check is also considered in passing on the purchase application, and no weapon will be shipped until the Treasury check has been completed.

In addition, each purchaser, after supplying proof of NRA membership as required by statute, will be required to execute a certificate stating: (1) that he meets all the requirements found in the bill before you as to minimum age and freedom from indictment or conviction of a serious crime; (2) that the weapon will be used for marksmanship training purposes; and (3) that he will comply with all requirements of State and local law. Where appropriate, evidence is required of compliance with State and local registration or licensing requirements.