Mr. McGIFFERT. I think, Senator Dodd, we have many areas of comnon interest in which we can cooperate. The marksmanship program s the prime example. We obviously are not in a state of cooperation with respect to the bill which is before us. We disagree very much with he NRA's position on the bill.

Chairman DODD. Well, I am glad to get your statement on the rec›rd. I thought it ought to be clarified.

If there are no questions, we will recess now.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, I had some questions.

Chairman DODD. I am sorry, Senator Thurmond. Would you excuse ne and recess afterwards? I want to be on the floor during the morning

hour.

Senator THURMOND. Yes, sir.

Chairman DODD. I greatly appreciate it. You may preside.

Senator THURMOND (presiding). Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, on page 5 you state that the weapons and ammunition sold to the DCM clubs are only those in excess to the Government's needs. Now, there was some mention here about the disposition but I im not sure that was clear. What would be the disposition of these weapons if they were not made available to the DCM clubs? In other words, would they find their way into the market, to the pawnshops or ny surplus stores, army stores, or even the mail-order firms?

Mr. McGIFFERT. No; Senator Thurmond, they would not. They would either be distributed to DCM clubs or sold to NRA members under the sales program or scrapped.

Senator THURMOND. Well, otherwise they would all be destroyed. Mr. McGIFFERT. That is correct.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Secretary, are any of the members of the junior DCM clubs or the school or college clubs under age 18?

Mr. McGIFFERT. Yes.

Senator THURMOND. So that if this law were passed, then, you would not be able to make these weapons available?

Mr. McGIFFERT. No; we will make these weapons available to junior clubs by means of distributing them to the adult supervisor or instructor, which every junior club must have in order to qualify as a club to begin with. Those weapons will be in his custody.

Senator THURMOND. If this law prohibits guns being placed in the hands of people under age 18, this, in a way, might give you the impression that you are getting around the law if you put them in the hands of a club, which in turn puts them in the hands of people under 18, would it not?

Mr. McGIFFERT, Well, we think that with

Senator THURMOND. Of course, I am in favor of people under 18 having them, you understand that. But I am just thinking of the effect of this law and the impression it would make if you followed that circuitous route.

Mr. McGIFFERT. Well, there is nothing that we see in it that is circuitous, Senator Thurmond. We think that since we already require our junior clubs to be under adult supervision and that their weapons be under the control of an adult and that their firing be done in the presence of an adult it is perfectly appropriate for us to deliver the weapons to the adult who then can supervise their use.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Secretary, are you satisfied that the work and the relationship this program has with the National Rifle Associa tion has worked to the benefit of the Government?

Mr. McGIFFERT. I think it has worked to the benefit of both partie Senator.

Senator THURMOND. There is no requirement that members of DC clubs be members of the NRA, is there?

Mr. McGIFFERT. No.

Senator THURMOND. You said in answer to a question, I believe fro the chairman, that approximately 47 to 50 percent of the DCM club are junior clubs. What percentage of free weapons and ammunition go to these junior clubs?

Mr. McGIFFERT. We will have to supply that for the record, Senato Thurmond. We do not have the precise breakdown.

(The information referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 108" and as follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 108

As of 30 June 1967, 38,438 weapons were on loan to DCM clubs. Of the 14,256 or 37 percent were on loan to junior clubs, junior divisions of seni clubs, or schools. Fifteen percent of the caliber .30 weapons were on loan schools, while 61 percent of the caliber .22 weapons were on loan to jun clubs, junior divisions or schools. No pistols were on loan to these organizations In fiscal 1966, juniors (18 years or under) were issued 23,748,220 rounds of .22 ammunition. This was 64.2% of the caliber .22 ammunition issued that year and 45.2% of the total ammunition of all types issued that year. Caliber ammunition is not issued for junior clubs or junior divisions of senior elzSenator THURMOND. Now, do not a large percent of the sales go ↑ members of senior clubs? These are sales.

Mr. McGIFFERT. We do not really know, Senator Thurmond.
Senator THURMOND. I am speaking of sales now.

Mr. McGIFFERT. Yes. About half of the members of the NRA a members of DCM clubs, is that not correct?

Colonel BERRY. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. McGIFFERT. Well, strike that out, if you will.

The answer is we just do not know, Senator Thurmond, because t individual

Senator THURMOND. Does the colonel know the answer to that? Colonel BERRY. No, sir; I do not, because weapons are sold on the basis of individual membership and no record is kept at the sal point as to whether this man belongs to a DCM club or not.

Senator THURMOND. Now, I want to ask you this: It has been se gested, or the statement made, that the weapons used at Camp Pers are obsolete. Is it not a fact that there has been some training give: there in the M-16?

Colonel BERRY. Yes, sir; there was last year for the first time, s it is planned this year.

Senator THURMOND. Is that the latest rifle the Army has?

Colonel BERRY. It is the latest they are using in Vietnam, yes, Senator THURMOND. They are using it in Vietnam now. I was over there in December and I remember firing it myself over there. remember there was a Vietcong who was captured, and I was gettin ready to fire the M-16 and they brought him down to where I doing that, and he got the idea I was going to execute him and bew. a little uneasy. We soon assured him that was not the case.

But the M-16 is a very fine rifle, is it not?

Colonel BERRY. It is a fine rifle, sir, from the reports I have read,

in combat, yes, sir.

Senator THURMOND. And it is the latest that the services have? Mr. McGIFFERT. That is correct, sir.

Senator THURMOND. The most modern that any of the services has today, is it not?

Mr. McGIFFERT. That is correct.

Senator THURMOND. And that rifle is being used and its use is being used and operated at Camp Perry?

Colonel BERRY. I think you should define "use," sir. There is a familiarization program offered to those who want to take advantage of it.

Senator THURMOND. Perhaps I should have used the word "familiarization," rather than "used."

Colonel BERRY. That is correct.

Senator THURMOND. But that is the case?

Colonel BERRY. That is the case, sir.

Senator THURMOND. I have no other questions, Mr. Secretary. Ọn behalf of the committee and myself, I want to express my appreciation to you.

The subcommittee will now stand adjourned until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m. the hearing recessed until 2 p.m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Chairman DODD (presiding). The hearing is resumed.

Our next witness is Mr. Warren Page, who is representing the National Shooting Sports Foundation, also the Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute and the National Reloading Manufacturers Association.

Mr. Page has been shooting editor of Field and Stream magazine since 1947. He is currently president of the National Shooting Sports Foundation and a trustee of the African Wildlife Leadership Foundation.

Mr. Page, we are pleased that you could come here. We will be very glad to hear your testimony.

You are obviously a man who is well qualified to testify on this subject.

STATEMENT OF WARREN PAGE, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL SHOOTING SPORTS FOUNDATION; ACCOMPANIED BY ROBERT C. ZIMMER, COUNSEL

Mr. PAGE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman DODD. By the way, Mr. Page, you may read every word of your statement, put it all in, or change it, whatever method you prefer. Mr. PAGE. Mr. Chairman, my name is Warren Page. I am shooting editor of Field and Stream and president of the board of governors of the National Shooting Sports Foundation.

I wish to thank you for the opportunity to testify here today on behalf of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, of which the counsel,

Robert Zimmer, sits at my left, and the National Reloading Manufacturers Association.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation has 103 member companies which manufacture sporting arms and ammunition, components, accessories, and hunting clothing, or publish outdoor magazines. The foundation was chartered to promote the shooting sports in America and to give the public a better understanding of recreational shooting. The Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) is a trade association representing many of the major sporting arms, ammunition, and powder manufacturers in the United States.

The National Reloading Manufacturers Association is a trade ass ciation which represents a number of manufacturers of ammunition reloading equipment and components.

We have submitted to counsel a membership list for each of these three organizations.

(The membership lists referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 109, 110 and 111" and are as follow:)

EXHIBIT NO. 109

MEMBERS OF NATIONAL SHOOTING SPORTS FOUNDATION, INC.

Abercrombie & Fitch Co., New York, New York.

Amateur Trapshooting Association, Vandalia, Ohio.

American Walnut Manufacturers Assoc., Chicago, Illinois.

Ammodyne, Los Angeles, California.

Argosy, New York, New York.

Athletic Goods Manufacturers Assoc., Chicago, Illinois.

Bausch & Lomb, Inc., Rochester, New York.

H. J. Behn & Company, Inc., Bridgeport, Connecticut.
George Brothers, Great Barrington, Massachusetts.
Brownell's Inc., Montezuma, Iowa.

Browning Arms Company, Morgan, Utah.

J. M. Bucheimer Company, Frederick, Maryland.

Buffalo Gun Center, Inc., Buffalo, New York.

D. P. Bushnell & Company, Inc., Pasadena, California.

Canadian Industries, Ltd., Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Carter's Gun Works, Charlottesville, Virginia.

Casting Engineers, 2323 North Bosworth Ave., Chicago, Illinois.
Charter Arms Corporation, Bridgeport, Connecticut.
Colorado Magazine, Incorporated, Denver, Colorado.
Colt's Inc. Firearms Division, Hartford, Connecticut.
Converse Rubber Company, Melrose Park, Illinois.
Crossman Arms Company, Inc., Fairport, Nw York
Daisy Manufacturing Company, Rogers, Arkansas.
Dallas Uniform Cap & Emblem Mfg., Inc., Dallas, Texas.
Davis Publications, New York, New York.

Detroit Bullet Trap, Arlington Heights, Illinois.

Dixie Gun Works, Inc., Union City, Tennessee.

E. I. duPont de Nemours & Co., Inc., Wilmington, Delaware.

Reinhart Fajen, Inc., Warsaw, Missouri.

Field & Stream, New York, New York.

Firearms International Corporation, Washington, D.C.
Fitz, Los Angeles, California.

Game Winner, Inc., Atlanta, Georgia.

The Gun Digest Company, Chicago, Illinois.

Guns & Ammo Magazine, Hollywood, California.

Guns & Hunting, New York, New York.

Guns Magazine, Skokie, Illinois.

GUNsport Magazine, Falls Church, Virginia.

Gun Week, Sidney, Ohio.

Gun World, Covina, California.

The Handloader Magazine, Peoria, Illinois.

Harrington & Richardson, Inc., Worcester, Massachusetts.

Heatbath Corporation, Springfield, Massachusetts.

Herrett's Stocks, Twin Falls, Idaho.

The High Standard Manufacturing Corp., Hamden, Connecticut-
Hi-Precision Manufacturing Co., Orange City, Iowa.

B. E. Hodgdon, Inc., Shawnee Mission, Kansas.

Frank A. Hoppe, Inc., Jenkintown, Pennsylvania.

Hornady Manufacturing Company, Grand Island, Nebraska.
Ithaca Gun Company, Incorporated, Ithaca, New York.

Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works, Inc., Fitchburg, Massachusetts.
Jet-Aer Corporation, Paterson, New Jersey.

The George Lawrence Company, Portland, Oregon.

Lead Industries Association, Inc., New York, New York.
Lee Custom Engineering, Inc., Hartford, Wisconsin.
Leupold & Stevens Instruments, Portland, Oregon.
Lion Brothers Company, Inc., Owings Mills, Maryland.
Lyman Gun Sight Corporation, Middlefield, Connecticut.
Mershon Company, Los Angeles, California.

O. F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc., North Haven, Connecticut.
National Skeet Shooting Association, Dallas, Texas.
National Sporting Goods Association, Chicago, Illinois.
National Wildlife Federation, Washington, D.C.

Navy Arms Company Incorporated, Ridgefield, New Jersey.
Noble Manufacturing Co., Inc., Haydenville, Massachusetts.
National Muzzle Loading Rifle Assoc., Friendship, Indiana.
Ohaus Scale Corporation, Union, New Jersey.

Outdoor Life, New York, New York.

Pachmayr Gun Works, Inc., Los Angeles, California.

Pacific Gun Sight Company, Lincoln, Nebraska.

Poly-Choke Company Inc., Hartford, Connecticut.

Popular Science Publishing Company, Inc., New York, New York.
Redfield Gun Sight Co., Denver, Colorado.

RCBS, Inc., Oroville, California.

Remington Arms Company, Inc., Bridgeport, Connecticut.

Richmond Sport Products, Inc., Richmond, Illinois.

Savage Arms, Westfield, Massachusetts.

Buddy Schoellkopf Products, Inc., Dallas, Texas.

Walter Schwimmer, Inc., Chicago, Illinois.

Scopes, Inc., Pasadena, California.

Selling Sporting Goods, Chicago, Illinois.

Sheridan Products Inc., Racine, Wisconsin.

The Shooters Bible, South Hackensack, New Jersey.

The Shooting Industry, Skokie, Illinois.

Shooting Times, Peoria, Illinois.

Sierra Bullets, Inc., Santa Fe Springs, California.

Simmons Gun Specialties, Inc., Kansas City, Missouri.

Skinner's Sportsmens Supply, Juneau, Alaska.

Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Massachusetts.

Speer, Lewiston, Idaho.

Sporting Goods Dealer, St. Louis, Missouri.

Sports Afield, New York, New York.

Sports Age Magazine, Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Stoeger Arms Corporation, South Hackensack, New Jersey.

Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc., Southport, Connecticut.

10-X Manufacturing Company, Des Moines, Iowa.

Trap & Field Magazine, Indianapolis, Indiana.

Trius Products, Inc., Cleves, Ohio.

Utica Duxbak Corporation, Utica, New York.

Weatherby, Inc., South Gate, California.

W. R. Weaver Company, El Paso, Texas.

Winchester-Western Division of Olin, New Haven, Connecticut.