peared to thofe who prefented them fo diametrically oppofite for the learned Lord who had prefented the laft, thought it fo different from The one which had preceded it; that he had voted against hearing counfel upon it, and in a few minutes after, had moved that counfel fhould be heard upon a petition which the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought precifely the fame. To him, however, there appeared additional reafons for going into evidence upon this petition. It concerned a great and important branch of the commerce of this country. No man could be fo ignorant as not to know its value and its extent. --it concerned alfo a branch of the trade of this country, upon which no evidence had been of fered to the house. Many petitions indeed there had been, ftating the ruinous confequences of the Irish propofitions to this material and impor tant article of our trade; but no evidence had been offered to the houfe upon this head. As to the lateness of the petition, it was extremely natural that the prefent petitioners fhould conclude that it was unneceffary that they should produce evidence, or be heard by their counfel, when there were so many in the fame fituation, and under the fame circumstances as themselves:they could not be aware of the arts that had been used to keep back information, and prevent petitioners from coming to the bar. He fhould, however, think it the height of injuftice to refufe to the petitioners the right of stating their cafe to the houfe, and to refufe to the house the means of judging of the extent of what was propofed, by obftinately preventing the most mateial information from being brought forward in the only authentic way in which it could be produced.

The motion was negatived without a divifion. 12.] Mr. Eden rofe, to prefent a petition from the iron manufacturers of London, Briftol, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Warwickshire, and Scotland, praying to be heard against the Irish refolutions; he said that after the decifion which the house had come to yesterday, relative to a petition from the tanners of the city of London, he fhould not have given any trouble to the house on the prefent occafion, were it not that there really appeared to him to be fome very peculiar circumstances attending the prefent petition, which made it extremely different from that which had been rejected the day before. From what he had heard, and, he affured the houfe, he was convinced of the truth of it, the reafon why the prefent petitioners did not take this ftep at a confiderably earlier period, was, that they had been taught to believe, by a very high authority, that thofe refolutions would, with respect to their trade, be modified in fuch a manner, as to fecure them from any danger, but on their finding that their hopes were illfounded, and that the expectations which they were taught to entertain were fallacious, they immediately drew up their petition, and took the means that appealed to them the moit efficacious towards having it prefented in time. Mr. Eden faid, he understood the petition from the nufacturers of iron at Glasgow and Paifley en delivered a few days fince to a learned order to have it prefented on Tuesday however, from what cause, they or he

could not pretend to fay, it was not prefented. The prefent petitioners did him the honour to ap ply to him to prefent their petition. He beg ged the houfe to confider their fituation, having by fallacious promifes been deluded from an ap plication to parliament, on a fubject on which their neareft and most effential interefts were concerned, and which was now fo fhortly to be concluded upon.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that he could not perceive in the petition any particu lar grounds alledged, whereupon the petitioners could have a diftinct claim to a hearing, after the refolution which the house had come to on the day before; and he should by no means confent, while fo many other important objects preffed for a difcuffion, to poftpone a matter of the utmost confequence, and that in direct violation of a refolution of the house.

Mr. Eden replied, that although the petition did not explain the particular ground for their claim to a hearing, that ought to be no obstacle against their being heard, becaufe what conftituted the special ground that ftrengthened and diftinguished their petition, was the fact that he had flated, viz. their having been deluded and deceived, from what they confidered as high authority, and led to imagine, till within this day or two, that they need not petition at all, as their interefts would be taken care of; that dif appointment, he thought was fufficient to take this petition out of the predicament in which that of the tanners had food. He therefore again preffed the house not to be guilty of the double injuftice of refufing to hear the complaints of its conflituents, and of precluding themselves from the information which a refpectable body of men concerned in a very important branch of commerce might be expected to afford.

The Lord Advocate of Scotland was defirous of explaining to the house the circumstances which had occafioned the other petition not have ing been prefented on Tuesday laft; he was on that day engaged at the bar in the Houfe of Lords, on a caufe of the greatest importance, but he notwithstanding left the Houfe of Lorde, and came down to the houfe in his gown, in order to prefent the petition, but first having afked the Speaker whether it was neceffary to prefent it on that day, he had informed him, that if it were to be prefented on the day fol lowing (Wednesday) it would be heard as if prefented on that day, that he accordingly waited till Wednesday; on which day, the pettion from the tanners was rejected, he offered the petition he had to prelent, but it could not be received.

The Speaker vouched for the truth of what the learned Lord had faid, and explained how he had been the caufe of the miftake.

Mr. Fox remembered to have seen the learned Lord in the houfe on Tuesday, and regretted that he did not then prefent the petition, as by his neglect the houfe were in danger of lofing a very uleful and neceffary fyftem of information, and that on a subject, which notwithstanding its importance, had not come before the houte in the way in which it was now offered, and he thought that the best way in which the house

could

fwifter than winds we're

flying, Spheres on fpheres fur-rounding, Health and strength a

fwifter than winds we're

flying, Spheres on spheres fur-rounding, Health and strength

1785.

could come at information, was through the medium of perfons profeffionally killed and intereftled in the fubject of inquiry.

1

Mr. S. Thornton obferved, that this petition had originated in the Chamber of Commerce, and though he did not mean to make any reflection on that refpectable body, he could not very warmly approve of their writing out a ftring of queftion and answers, ready cut and dry for a witnefs, and giving a copy of it to a member of that houfe to examine.

Mr. Fox faid, that he had never received fuch a lift of questions, but if a witnefs were to tell him what questions would be the most likely to bring out fuch information as was neceflary or vfeful, he should think it no matter of fhame to take it, and act upon it.

Mr. Hammet faid, that he had got a fet of queftions, which he was requested to ask a witnefs, but he had no intimation of what the answers were to be. He offered the lift to Mr. Pitt, which fet the house in a loud fit of laughter.

Lord North propofed, as the only method of rectifying the difficulty, to call in the petitioners, and to ask them the reafon why their petition was not prefented earlier? and if it appeared from their anfwer that they had no good reason to fhew, that the delufion which was complained of, and the other difappointments were founded, then to difmifs the petition; otherwife it certainly would be unjuft to deprive them of an opportu nity of being heard, on account of the faults or mistakes of others.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer expreffed his entire fatisfaction in Lord North's plan, as the bett way to come at the truth, and to afcertain what particular diftinct grounds the prefent petitioners might have to entitle them to a hearing.

Two of the petitioners, Mr. Gibbons and Mr. Raby, were then called in, and interrogated as to the reafon which prevented their prefenting their petition at an earlier period, when Mr. Gibbons declared, that his only reafon for deferring it, was an affurance from Mr. Rofe, that the interests of his manufacture would he attended to, according to a plan which he himself propofed; but he had fince been led to imagine, that the promifed fecurity would not be afford ed, and this imagination he acknowledged principally arofe from his fears.

As foon as Mr. Gibbons had withdrawn Mr. Rofe declared, that however he might be mifunderstood by the witnels, he could answer for i., that he had never given any such assurance as he was now reprefented to have given, nor was it poffible that he could have done fo with out an intention to deceive, as the fecurity demanded by the witnefs for the iron manufactory, was fuch as appeared to him at the time, to be monstrous and abfurd; he declared before God and the houfe, that he had never faid any thing on the fubject, which could juftify Mr. Gibbons in fuppofing, that he had ever encouraged him to hope for fuch a fecurity.

Mr. Fox faid, that no man could be account as ble, either for misconceiving or being mifconceived; that however it was evident, that in this cafe, there had been a misconception, and that

661

although Mr. Gibbons could not precifely afcertain the time, when his mifconception was dif pelled, yet that it would be proper to call in Mr. Raby, whofe evidence, he believed on that fubject, would be more fatisfactory.

Mr. Raby was accordingly called in, and affured the house, that he had himself, formed the fame hopes with Mr. Gibbons, and was not undeceived till Tuefday laft.

Mr. Steele role and declared, that he was prefent at the converfation between Mr. Gibbons and his honourable friend, and remembered perfectly well, that no fuch fecurity, as he had ftated, was promised to him, on the contrary he was then informed, that the security he demanded, was fuch as he could by no means expect, but that an equalifing duty would of courfe be adopted between the two countries, provided that the parliament of Ireland could be induced to impose one.

Mr. Brickdale rofe, to affure the house that he had an intimate knowledge of Mr. Gibbons, and could vouch for him, that there was not a better informed man, nor one whom he would be less ready to fuspect of any defign to prevaricate, or deceive the house, within the whole circle of his acquaintance.

Mr. Alderman Watfon faid, he thought it would be a high degree of difrefpect to the city of London, if after refufing to hear a petition from a numerous body of its inhabitants, they fhould the following day depart from the principle on which their refufal was founded, in order to hear a fet of petitioners, who let their claims to the attention of the house, be what they might, could not be more powerful than thofe claims which they had already rejected.

Lord North declared, he could by no means agree with the hon. Alderman, that because the city of London had already fuffered a hardship, that hardship should be made a precedent againft others.

Mr. Eden applied to the candour of the house, and the right hon. Gentleman, on the impre priety and manifeft injuftice of refusing to hear the witneffes in fupport of a petition, the purport of which was, he declared, in his opinion, of the most serious confequence, particularly as the examination upon it was likely not to laft more than an hour.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that with regard to the charge made against his hon. Friend, it was a difficult and delicate matter, even between equals, much lefs between perfons of different ranks in life, he should therefore omit saying any thing on that head; but he was perfectly fatisfied that the witneffes thould he called before the committee, not in confequence of any arguments he had heard from Genilemea on the other fide of the house, but because Mr. Raby had fhewn a fubftantial reafon, why he was entitled to be heard; he defired the house however to take notice that notwithstanding the unexpected interruption he had met with, he would, as foon as the evidence was clofed, proceed that very evening to the promised bufinefs of the day.

Mr. Fox expreffed his very strong disapprobation of the ungracious manner, in which the right honourable Gentleman was used to demean