Journals of the House of Lords

"no Diminution of Your Prerogative, and promife to "fupport you in the afferting it against all Invafions. "whatsoever. It is not poffible for us to remain filent "under this heavy Charge, fo unjustly and without the "leaft Ground or Colour endeavoured to be fixed upon "the whole Body of the Peers; which, tending directly "to create an ill Opinion of us in Your Majefty, puts "us under an inevitable Neceffity of vindicating both "the Legality and the dutiful Manner of our Pro"ceeding.

"The Expreffions in the Addrefs of the House of "Commons are fo very harfh and indecent, that, we may truly affirm, the like were never ufed of the House "of Peers in any Age; not even by that Affembly, "which, under the Name of the Houfe of Commons, "took upon them not only to abolish the House of "Lords, but to deftroy the Monarchy. We fhall care"fully avoid making Returns of that Kind: We confider "too much what we owe to ourfelves, and we know too "well the profound Refpect due to Your Royal Perfon, "to let any Provocation transport us fo, as to ufe Words "unfit to be offered by us to our Sovereign.

"The Matter of this Addrefs is no lefs injurious to "us than the Terms. There was not the leaft Occafion "for a juft Objection to any Part of our Conduct, in that "Bufinefs to which the Addrefs relates. The Procee"ding was ftrictly justifiable by the known Laws and "Cuftoms of Parliament; it was carried on with the "utmost Respect to Your Majefty, and with true Zeal "for the Safety of Your Perfon and Government. All "that was done was agreed to by the concurrent Opi"nion of the Houfe, without the leaft Objection from 66 any of our Members who have the Honour of ferving "Your Majesty in Your great Offices and Employ

ments.

converfing with others, it will certainly be always in "the Power of Favourites to caufe thofe who can be "Witneffes against them, as well as the Accomplices "of their Designs, to be taken into Cuftody. And if "Perfons in Cuftody are out of the Reach of the Houfe "of Lords, who are the Hereditary Counfellors of the "Crown, and in whom a Judicial Power is lodged by "the Constitution, it is not to be imagined that the "Commons can pretend to a greater Power of examining, committing, or reftraining them.

"We humbly represent to Your Majefty, that, by "the known Law and Custom of Parliaments, the House ❝ of Peers has an undoubted Right, in Cafes where they "conceive it to be for the Good and Safety of Your Majefty and the Kingdom, to take Examinations of "Perfons charged with Criminal Matters, whether fuch "Perfons be then in Cuftody or not; and alfo to order "the Perfons fo to be examined to be taken into Cuftody "of Your Majefty's fworn Officers attending the House, "during fuch Examinations, or to commit them to any "other fafe Cuftody that they fhall think proper; and "to reftrain others, if they fee Caufe, from having Accefs "to, or Communication with, them. The House of "Lords has exercifed this Right from Time to Time, as Occafions have required, without Objection; our "Records are filled with Precedents, which warrant our "Claim in every Part of it; and we prefume to affirm to "Your Majefty, that the drawing this Right into Quef❝tion, at any Time, cannot but be of dangerous Confequence to the Liberties and Safety of the People, "and to the Conftitution of the Government, as ten"ding to avoid or render in great Measure ineffectual "the Inquiries of Parliaments, which are so abfolutely "neceffary, especially where many and great Perfons "are engaged in dangerous Defigns against the Govern"ment, or where ill Minifters abuse their Favour to"wards the oppreffing or enflaving of the People. "Your Majefty's Wifdom and Goodness make us fe"cure at prefent against all Influences of that Kind; "and we unanimoufly and heartily pray, we may long enjoy the Bleffing of Your Reign. But if it happens "in future Times that ill Men thould gain too great a Degree of Favour with our Princes, how eafy will "it be for them to ftifle or defeat all Parliamentary "Inquiries into their Crimes! for if the being in Prison, "or in the Hands of a Meffenger, will protect Men from "being examined in the Houfe of Lords, or from being "put into the Cuftody of the proper Officers of the "Iloufe during the Examination, and debarred from

"This Confideration gave us the greater Aftonishment, to find our Proceedings reprefented in the ftrange Terms of wrefting Prifoners out of Your Majefty's Hands, and taking the Examination of them folely to ourselves. We believe, the ordering Perfons "to be examined in that High Court where Your Majefty is always prefent in Confideration of Law, and "in that great Council where You may be prefent in "Your Royal Perfon as often as You please, will never "be thought an Exclufion of Your Majefty from the "Examinations; if that was intended to be infinuated, by faying, we had taken the Examinations folely to "ourfelves."

"Having thus laid before Your Majefty what it "is we claim, and muft infift on, as the indifputa"ble Right of the Houfe of Peers; which was never "prejudicial to the juft Prerogatives of the Crown, "thought in the Time of Your Royal Ancestors to be "and which is manifeftly neceffary for the fecuring of "the Liberties of Your People, whereof we are affured "Your Majefty will have an equal Care; we humbly particular Matter of Fact relating to thefe Prifoners; beg Leave to lay before You a fhort State of the "not doubting but, when the whole Proceeding is known "to Your Majefty, it will be approved, not only as lawful, but every Way refpectful to Your Majefty.

"On Tuesday the Fourteenth of December, the House "of Lords was informed, that feveral Perfons had been "feized, by the Custom-house Officers on the Coast of Suffex, as they came from France; and that amongst "them there was one Boucher, who was capable of making confiderable Difcoveries, having been in Arms "in the French Service for many Years, and Gentleman "of the Horse and Aid de Camp to the late Duke of "Berwick, who ftands attainted of High Treafon, and "who had been fecretly in England feveral Times be"fore; that it was probable, if he was strictly examined, " he might be brought to confefs, fince he faw his Life "in apparent Danger; but that he was a bold Man, "and likely to attempt an Escape, on that very account, "if he was not carefully looked after: And the House

was also told, that there was a general Remiffness, both "in the taking, fearching, and looking to fuch Prisoners; "which did afterwards appear very evidently in the "Examinations that were taken. Upon this Informa"tion, the Earl of Nottingham, Your Majesty's Principal

Secretary of State, acquainted the Houfe, "That he "had not heard of Boucher's Name particularly; but had "fent Meffengers, to bring one Ogilby and the other Pri"foners, who had been apprehended by the Cuftom"house Officers, to Town; and that he believed the "Meffengers would do their Duty; but he would not be "anfwerable for them."

"After

"After this Account of the Prifoners, and of what "Twentieth of December. Upon Confideration of the "had been done in order to fecure them, the House Report, the House found it requifite to commit Boucher thought themfelves obliged, in Duty to Your Majefty, "to the Prifon of Newgate, for High Treafon. And "and for the public Safety, at a Time when the King-"the Lords Committees having fubmitted to the Judge"dom is engaged in an open War with France, and that "there are too juft Grounds to apprehend the dange"rous Practices of French Emiffaries, to make an hum"ble Address to Your Majefty, "That particular Care "might be taken, for fecuring the Perfons of Boucher, "and of those who were taken with him, and that none "might be fuffered to fpeak with them till they were. "examined."

The next Day, Your Majefty's Gracious Answer to "this Address was reported to the House, "That Care "had been taken to fecure the Prifoners; and that "Your Majefty would give Orders that nobody should speak with them till they were examined:" Thereupon "the Lords entered into a farther Confideration of the Importance of this Matter; and conceiving nothing to "be more likely to bring Prifoners, who had forfeited "their Lives, to a full Discovery of the Truth, than to "find themselves under the Inquiry of a Parliament, "they thought it would be of public Service, for them "to take the Examinations of these Perfons; and accordingly an Order was made, that no Perfons fhould "fpeak with the Prifoners, till they had appeared at the "Bar of the House.

"On the Sixteenth Day, the Earl of Nottingham in"forming the House of Lords that the Prifoners were "brought to Town, the Ufher of the Black Rod was "ordered to take them into his Cuftody, in order to their "Examination, and to keep them feparate, and in clofe "Cuftody (as Your Majefty had before directed); and it being thought moft proper, from the Nature of the Thing, that the Examination fhould be by a Commit"tee of Lords, rather than by the whole Houfe, it was "refolved accordingly.

"We beg Leave to mention to Your Majesty a Mat"ter of Fact, which fatisfied the Lords, that their Re"folution to take the Examinations of Boucher, and the "Perfons apprehended with him, was neither unknown "nor difagreeable to Your Majefty: On the fame Day "when that was ordered, being the Fifteenth of Decem "ber, the Lords refolved to examine Sir John Maclean, "a very dangerous Perfon, as was reprefented to the "Houfe, who then ftood committed in the Hands of "a Meffenger; and for that Purpose ordered him to be brought to the House the next Day; having, as they "then thought, very good Grounds to believe it might prove of great Service to Your Majefty. Sir John "Maclean was brought to the Houfe, according to the "Order. But Your Majefty being pleafed fo far to take "Notice of this Order, as to fignify to the House, by "the Lord Steward, that Sir John Maclean had been in "Part examined already, and that Your Majesty thought "it not proper to have that Bufinefs taken out of the Way of Examination it was then in, but that Your Majefty would in a fhort Time communicate it to the "Houfe; the Lords immediately acquiefced in Your Majefty's Opinion, and fent back Sir John Macklean "to the Place from whence he was brought. It was "with this Difpofition of Mind, the Lords acted in this "whole Matter; and if Your Majefty, who, no Doubt, "had the fame Notice of both Orders, had thought any "other Method of the Examination of Boucher and the "Perfons taken with him more proper than that of the "Lords, they had Reafon to conclude Your Majefty "would have intimated it at the fame Time; and moft certainly the Houfe would have had a like Deference "for Your Royal Judgement in that Instance also.

བ་

ment of the Houfe, whether feveral Parts of the Examinations, referred to in their Report, fhould be laid open to the Houfe, or put into any other Way of being farther inquired into or profecuted; the Houfe, out of a full Affurance they had, that, when the "Matter of Fact fhould be laid before Your Majesty, "You would certainly give fuch Orders thereupon as "were every Way fuitable to Your Royal Prudence "and tender Care of the public Safety, did unani"moully refolve, without fo much as fuffering thofe "Parts of the Report to be laid open to the House, ""That an humble Addrefs fhould be made, from the "House, to Your Majefty, by the Lord Steward and "the Duke of Somerfet (Two of the Lords Committees "to whom the Examination had been referred), laying "before Your Majefty the whole Report, with all Matters relating thereto; and humbly defiring Your Majefty to give Order, that Boucher fhould be profecuted by Mr. Attorney General for High Treafon; and that as to the Commitment, Profecution, or Discharge of "the other Prifoners mentioned in the Report, You "would be pleased to give fuch Directions as thould "feem most proper to Your Royal Wisdom."

"Thus, as the whole Affair was entered upon out "of Zeal for Your Majefty's Prefervation, and the Safety of the Kingdom, and was carried on and con"cluded with all poffible Refpect to You; fo we had "the Comfort to reft affured, that our Behaviour was "no lefs graciously accepted by Your Majefty, from "the Answer You were pleased to make the fame Day "to our last Addrefs on this Subject, and which was reported to us, on the Twenty-fecond of Decem"ber, by the Duke of Somerfet, whereby Your Majefty "was pleased to fignify to the Houfe, with Your ac"customed Goodness, "That You would give Order for every Thing as the Lords had defired."

"This is a true and juft Account of our Proceedings, "which have been fo ftrangely mifreprefented, and to "which no Exception can poffibly be taken by any Per"fons rightly informed; for, as we had Your Royal Approbation of all that was done, fo the House of Commons could have had no Pretence of Objection, if they "had taken the ufual Parliamentary Methods, of defiring "to be informed of what we had done, and of the "Grounds of our Proceedings, before they had ap"proached Your Majefty with fuch a Reprefentation "of them.

"Their carrying this unprecedented Addrefs to Your

Majefty, in fo hafty a Manner, gives us almost as great "Trouble, as the hard Ufage we find in it. The an"cient, known, and indeed only effectual Method of preferving a good Correfpondence between the Two "Houfes of Parliament, has been by Conferences. If, "at any Time, either Houfe conceived they had a rea"fonable Ground to object against the Proceedings of "the other, Conferences have been defired, and the "Matter in Debate between them fairly difcuffed; "and thereby Miftakes have been cleared for the most "Part, and a good Understanding cultivated, and a mu"tual Refpect preferved; which is always highly requifite in the Nature of our Conftitution, but more efpecially neceffary in this Time of War and Danger.

"The Lords Committees, appointed to examine the "Had the Houfe of Commons thought fit to have "Prisoners, proceeded with all poffible Difpatch, and "purfued this Method upon this Occation, we should "made their Report to the Houfe on the One and "have been able to have given them entire Satisfaction, VOL. XVII. 5 B

པ་

"There remains One Particular more, which we will "only name to Your Majefty, because we reft fatisfied "it cannot have Weight any where; that is, the Infi"nuation in the Addrefs, as if the Examination of thefe "Prifoners by the Lords was in order to obftruct the Inquiry into the Defigns against Your Majefty's Per"fon and Government; or, at least, that it was likely to produce fuch an Effect. Our dutiful Zeal for Your Majefty's Government, and our warm Concern to discover "all Designs and oppofe all Practices against it, are too "well known to the World, that any Suggeftions of "that Sort fhould make the leaft Impreffion to our Dif"advantage; and we are very fure it was no Sufpicion "of that Nature, which gave the true Rife to this very "fharp Addrefs: It is eafy to determine, whether a hearty and forward Undertaking to fearch into the "Defigns of Your Enemies, or the feeking Occafions "to object to and interrupt fuch Endeavours, be most "likely to obftruct the Discovery of the pernicious "Practices of Traitors.

"Moft Gracious Sovereign,

"We most humbly ask Pardon, for prefuming to give "Your Majesty the Trouble of this long Represen "tation; which has proceeded from the paffionate Con

"But, without making any fuch previous Step, the "Houfe of Commons have made an Appeal directly to "the Throne against the House of Lords, and charged "them, though most unjustly, with Attempts of the highest Nature. Nothing like this was ever done be"fore; and, out of our hearty Concern for the Prefer"vation of our happy Conftitution, we hope the fame "Thing will never be done again. We know Your Royal Heart is unmoveably fixed on preferving the "Liberties of Your People, and tranfmitting them en"tire to Pofterity; but if, in After-times, the Houfes of "Parliament should be appealing against one another "to the Crown (for if fuch a Courfe be juftifiable in "the House of Commons, the fame Method may be "taken by the Lords); as Your Majefty is now fenfible "how great Difficulties it neceffarily brings upon a good Prince; fo it is eafy to foresee (and we cannot "think of it without Terror) how fatal the Confe66 quences may be in the Reign of an ill-defigning Prince, "and what Advantages may be taken from it, for ut"terly fubverting the beft-ordered Form of Govern"ment in the World. There are Examples Abroad, "where Proceedings of this Kind have ended in the "Overthrow of the Liberties of the People; which "makes us the more apprehend the Beginning of them among ourselves. Your Majefty's great Judgement "cannot but readily difcern, whither it does naturally "tend, for One House of Parliament to be exciting and "earnestly defiring the Sovereign to exert a real or "fuppofed Prerogative against the other House: It is not eafy to imagine what the Commons could ex"pect of Your Majefty from fuch an Application. The "Lords have never entertained a Thought of ufing" "this dangerous Method, whatever Occafions may have "been given within the Compafs of late Years; and "we promise Your Majefty, we will always endeavour "to preserve a good Understanding with the House of "Commons; and fhall never think it too dear to pro"cure that Union at any Rate, unless that of deliver"ing up thofe Rights and Powers, which are lodged in us by the Law, and without which the Conftitution cannot fubfift.

"We shall never be guilty of the Prefumption of "prescribing to Your Majefty, when or against whom "You should exert Your Prerogative; but we will be "always ready to affift You in the Support of all the "juft Rights of the Crown, as well as in maintaining "the Liberties of the Subject, which we know are no "less dear to Your Majefty.

"It may with Modesty and Truth be affirmed, that "the Lords have, in all Times, been the fureft and moft "natural Bulwark of the Prerogatives of the Crown; "they being (as Your Royal Grandfather, of Ever-blef"fed Memory, was pleased to exprefs it) an excellent "Skreen and Bank between the Prince and the Peo"ple, to affift each against any Encroachment of the "other.

"We will never contribute, by any Act of ours, to "the Diminution of the Rights of the Crown; nor, as "far as we are able, will fuffer it in others. We can"not act otherwife, without hurting ourfelves in the "highest Degree; being thoroughly convinced, that the "Prefervation of the legal Prerogative is not only the "fureft Way to fecure our own Privileges, but of ab"folute Neceffity for the happy and rightful Adminif"tration of the Government. And we hope the House "of Commons will, in all Times to come, fpeak and a&t

cern we have, to ftand not only acquitted, but en"tirely approved, in the Judgement of fo excellent a Queen, and fo juftly beloved of all Her Subjects.

"We depend upon Your Juftice, as well as Your "Goodnefs, that nothing can do us Prejudice (from "whatsoever Hands it comes) in Your Royal Opinion, "while we continue to act, in that Station where we are placed by the Form of the English Government, "according to the Laws and Customs of Parliament, "with all imaginable Respect and Duty to Yourself, and all poffible Zeal for the Safety and Happiness of "Your Kingdom.

"Give us Leave to conclude this our humble Ad"drefs, with this firm Promife, That no Dangers, no Reproaches, nor any Artifices whatsoever, fhall deter

or divert us from ufing our utmost Endeavours, from "Time to Time, in difcovering and oppofing all Con"trivances and Attempts against Your Royal Perfon and "Government, and the Proteftant Succeffion, as by "Law eftablished."

Awdley's Bill.

Kops' Nat. Bill.

Judges Report, Irish

Linen, &c.

The Lord Paget reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the making void "certain Ufes, Eftates, and Trufts, limited in the Marriage Settlement of Henry Awdley Efquire, of certain "Manors and Lands contained in that Settlement; and "fettling other Manors and Lands, of better Value, to "and for the fame Ufes, Eftates, and Trufts," as fit to pafs, without any Amendment.

To which the Houfe agreed; and ORDERED, That the faid Bill be engroffed.

Hodie 2a viče lecta eft Billa, intituled, "An A&t for Lamp!ugh's fettling the Estate of Doctor Thomas Lamplugh de"ceased, pursuant to his Marriage Articles and Settle"ment prepared for that Purpofe; and for Provifion "for his Younger Children."

ORDERED, That the Confideration of the faid Bill be referred to the fame Committee to whom the Bill, intituled, "An A&t to enable Sir John Aftley Baronet to "make a Settlement upon his Marriage, during his Mi"nority, and to enable him to buy in any Rent Charge, "or other Incumbrance upon his Eftate," is referred: Who are to meet on Wednesday the Second Day of February next, at Ten a Clock in the Forenoon, in the Prince's Lodgings near the Houfe of Peers; and to adjourn as they please.

Hodie 2a vice lecta eft Billa, intituled, "An Act for Fermer's Bil. "fetting afide a voluntary Settlement, made by Mary "Fermer Widow; and for ratifying a Partition made of "the Manors of Merfham and Pett, and divers Lands "in the County of Suffex, between her and Bartholo"mew Walmefley Efquire, and others."

ORDERED, That the Confideration of the faid Bill be referred to the Committee abovenamed; who are to meet at the fame Time and Place.

verfus

After hearing Counfel, upon the Petition and Appeal Allanfon of Charles Allanfon, of The Middle Temple, London, El- Doulben: quire, furviving Executor of the laft Will and Teftament of Sir William Williams, late of Vaynol, in the County of Carnarvon, from an Order of the Court of Chancery, of the One and Twentieth Day of November One Thoufand Seven Hundred and Two, and the Order on Hearing and a Decree of the Seventh Day of December, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Two, made on the Behalf of John Doulben and Beata his Wife; and praying, "That the faid Orders and Decree may be re"verfed and fet afide:"

After due Confideration of what was offered there- Judgement upon, it is ORDERED and Adjudged, by the Lords affirmed. Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament affembled, That the faid Petition and Appeal of Charles Allanfon fhall be, and is hereby, difmiffed this Houfe; and that the Orders and Decrees therein complained of fhall be, and they are hereby, affirmed.

Dominus Cuftos Magni Sigilli declaravit præfens Par- Adjourn. liamentum continuandum effe ufque ad et in tertiam horam, hoc inftante die, poft meridiem, Dominis fic decernentibus.

DIE

To be printed

Viscount Townshend.

PRAYERS.

The Lord Keeper reported, "That the Houfe had "attended Her Majefty, with their humble Reprefenta"tion; and that Her Majefty was pleafed to return "this moft Gracious Anfwer:

"My Lords,

"I am very forry for any Mifunderstandings that "happen between the Two Houfes of Parliament; "which are fo inconvenient for the public Service, "and fo uneafy to Me, that I cannot but take Notice, "with Satisfaction, of the Affurances you give Me, "that you will carefully avoid all Occafions of them.

"I thank you for the Concern you exprefs for the "Rights of the Crown, and for My Prerogative; which "I shall never exert fo willingly as for the Good of My "Subjects, and the Protection of their Liberties."

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Tempoand published. ral in Parliament affembled, That the humble Reprefentation of this Houfe, prefented to Her Majefty this Day, and Her Majefty's moft Gracious Anfwer there. unto, fhall be forthwith printed and published.

PRAYERS.

The Lords went, in a Body, to the Abbey Church, Welm'r, to hear a Sermon.

Hodie

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Journals of the House of Lords, Volume 17