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place in the nature of our revenues. He would contend that, when the civil list was once granted to the crown to be disposed of, generally speaking without the interference of parliament, it was at the same time not only the right but the duty of parliament to inquire, whenever they saw any grounds for suspicion of prodigality or corruption, and especially whenever there was any application made to them for relief. The right hon. gentleman had spoken of the expenses in former reigns, but if he took into consideration the grants to the crown and the debt in the three reigns preceding that of his present majesty, he would find that in the first sixty years of the last century, the average expenditure was 794,000l. per annum. Now, allowing for all the sums which had been granted in aid of the civil list, and which was now proposed to be granted in aid of the civil list, for the last forty years, the expenditure, upon an average, was not above 918,000l. a year. He appealed to the committee, whether this increase in the proportion of from 8 to 9, taking all the circumstances of the times into consideration, deserved the language which had been applied to it by the right hon. gentleman? Let us look at the value of money during the period of which he had been speaking. It had increased in the proportion of from 2 to 3, and the increase in the expenditure of the civil list was only as 8 to 9. It would also be fair to look at the state of the hereditary revenue: the average amount of that revenue during his majesty's reign was 1,200,000l. a year, in 1800 it amounted to 1,800,000l.; and this great increase of these revenues was an additional proof of the increased prosperity and wealth which the people had acquired during his majesty's reign. He had no doubt but that the committee would concur in the motion of his right hon. friend.

Mr. Tierney, though he highly approved of Mr. Fox's general reasoning, could not agree with him that no instance could occur in which a motion for the payment of arrears on the civil list could be constitutionally entertained by the House. Very many instances might exist in which such a motion would be highly fit to be entertained, and when such arrears might be of such a nature as would fully justify their being discharged. Still less, however, could he agree with the right hon. gentleman opposite, that the mere circumstance of the debt having accrued was any

ground for the House agreeing to its liquidation, without a previous inquiry into its nature, and a satisfactory statement that it was the result of unavoidable causes. He was not prepared at once to give his direct negative to the payment of the present arrears, and therefore the mode of proceeding which he would recommend would be for the chairman to leave the chair, to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. It would then be in his power to move, that the subject be referred again to a committee, with instructions to them to investigate carefully the character of the several accounts, and to report their opinion to the House as to those parts out of the whole charge which they conceived ought in justice to be paid. He begged the committee to consider, whether all the payments made from the civil list in former reigns, and even since the accession of his present majesty, were now chargeable on its revenue. He believed that, in the early years of his majesty's reign there were many charges on the civil list, which were now satisfied out of other funds specially appropriated for that purpose. But, were the committee fully aware of the actual amount of the civil list revenue at the present moment. He had made some statements, the result of which was, that the amount of the civil list revenue was not less than 1,083,000. It had been confidently affirmed, that the accounts now presented to the House were not liable to animadversion, but he was of a very opposite opinion. At the end of a war unparalleled in the burthens it had brought upon the public, the House were called upon to vote the sum of one million to cover the arrears of the civil list. The discussion of the propriety of voting so large a sum was a matter of the gravest importance.

Dr. Laurence said, that nothing was more erroneous than the supposition that Mr. Burke had changed his opinion of the expediency and propriety of his bill. In this opinion, he had continued unshaken in his retirement; if before he quitted public life, he had entertained any doubts on the subject, he would have fairly and openly have made them known to the House and the public. The learned gentleman recommended an adherence to its provisions, and suggested the propriety of revising its most striking clauses.

The Committee divided on Mr. Tierney's amendment. For leaving the chair;

46; Against it, 228. The original ques. tion was then put, when there appeared, Ayes, 226; Noes, 51: Majority, 175.

Debate in the Lords on the King's Message respecting the Civil List.] March 29. The order of the day being read, and also his Majesty's Message,

Lord Pelham said, he conceived it was not necessary for him to go into the subject much at large, because the papers laid upon the table by him some time since, had no doubt been read and considered by every noble lord as well as himself. For this reason, he would briefly recapitulate the statement of the expenditure, divided into distinct classes; 1. The Pensions and Allowances to the Royal Family; 2. The Salaries of the Chancellor, the Speaker, and the Judges; 3. Salaries to Ministers to foreign Courts; 4. The Bills of all Tradesmen; 5. The Menial Servants of his Majesty's Household; 6. The Pension List; 7. The Salaries of all other Places payable out of the Civil List Revenues; 8. The Salaries and Pensions of the High Treasurer, or Commissioners of the Treasury, and Chancellor of the Exchequer; and, 9thly, Occasional Payments. His lordship explained upon each of thse several classes, in what manner the decrease or increase had arisen. In those parts which related immediately to the expenses of his majesty's family, a degree of economy had been practised, which would not fail to excite a just sense of his majesty's earnestness to prevent any additional burthens on his people. For the most part, that branch of the expenditure exceeded the estimate only where the excessive advance on the prices of every article of consumption rendered such exceeding unavoidable. The head under which the greatest exceeding occurred, was that of Occasional Payments; a head, the objects under which were so various, that it was impossible to form any thing like regular estimates to meet them. His lordship then moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to return his Majesty the Thanks of this House, for his most gracious Message, and to assure his Majesty of the grateful Sense this House entertains of his Majesty's well-founded Reliance on the loyal and affectionate Attachment of this House to his Majesty's Person and Government; and that this House, fully convinced of his Majesty's constant attention to the ease and welfare of his faithful people, [VOL. XXXVI.]

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will readily concur in enabling his Majesty to provide such means as shall be thought proper for removing the difficulties that have arisen from the debt which has been incurred in his Majesty's civil government.”

Earl Fitzwilliam heartily agreed in the early part of the Address; but with regard to expressing their readiness to concur in any mode of relief that might be submitted to them, he conceived they were not ripe for any such declaration. It became the House to make an ample inquiry into the causes to which the debt was attributable. It was the more extraordinary that any new excess should have arisen, because by Mr. Burke's bill, restraints were provided to prevent the possibility of ministers again running the Civil List in debt. It must, therefore, without farther explanation, appear, that ministers had disobeyed a positive act of the legislature. His lordship concluded with moving to leave out, after the words "people will," the rest of the motion, and insert instead thereof, the following words:" immediately proceed to the examination of the circumstances which have led to an accumulation of debt on his majesty's Civil List."

Lord Hobart said, that when it was considered that so small a debt had accumulated upon the Civil List expenditure in sixteen years, he thought the best way to manifest their respect to his majesty, would be to vote the Address; and therefore he must oppose the Amendment.

Lord Holland said, that no man had a deeper sense than himself of the many advantages the country had enjoyed under the auspices of the illustrious family which now occupied the throne; but recollecting how frequent applications like the present had been made during the present reign, he certainly conceived that so large a sum should not be granted as a matter of course. It redounded to the credit of the present ministers, that they had instituted an inquiry in the other House; and that their lordships should pursue a similar course, was the object of the Amendment. This was the more necessary, as it now appeared, that little or no increase had taken place in the household expenses. The plea of the high price of provisions must therefore be given up; it was a milch cow that was milked dry. It now appeared, that the debts had principally arisen under the head of Oc casional Payments, which were stated to [ 2 D]

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have been unforeseen. But if the late | laid before them; but what kind of satis ministers found that the yearly revenue faction could they derive from a mere was insufficient for discharging the neces- statement, that certain sums had been sary expenses of the civil government, paid under the head of Occasional Payhow did it happen that application was not ments. It was certainly singular, that sooner made to parliament? They must while a saving had taken place in other certainly have been fully aware, that this classes, this, which had, at its utmost lí accumulation was a direct violation of the mit, been fixed at 20,000l. should have so act of 1782. Mr. Burke could not have far exceeded that estimate as nearly to foreseen, that the spirit and letter of his comprise the whole of the debt; for it act would have been so grossly violated; amounted to no less a sum than 1,047,5877. that a third secretary of state would be This mode of keeping accounts reminded appointed; that this third secretary would him of a story he had somewhere read, of be a noble duke who had supported his a man who, finding himself living beyond bill for the regulation of the Civil List; his income, determined, by way of check and that he would have assented to this upon his disposition to extravagance, to accumulation of debt, in opposition to keep an account of his expenditure. that measure, and to the direct terms of a purchased an account-book, and resolved protest against the payment of the civil to be very particular in his items of exlist arrears in 1777. He was ready to penditure; but on opening his book at the meet the argument of the noble lord, as end of a week it contained but two items, to the inadequacy of the Civil List to the viz.-"A lead pencil, 8d.; Sundries, 150l," purposes for which it was granted. He Thus it was with the accuracy of minisconceived that parliament and his ma- ters in details of trivial moment they jesty had, upon good grounds, at the time were extremely minute; but, on the greatwhen the additional 100,000l. was granted, est head of extravagance, they Jumped off expressed their conviction that no farther an enormous sum under the head of "Ocdebt would be incurred. Here his lord-casional Payments." The noble lord then ship entered into a calculation of the exonerations which had taken place, with respect to the charges on the Civil List during the last sixteen years, from the operation of the sinking fund; the direct reduction in the expense of the household in 1782; the separate establishment of four princes of the blood royal; and the reversion of the pensions given to two others since dead. These he stated at the sum of 200,000l. yearly, exclusive of the savings in Secret Service money, and various other charges which were now voted by parliament. Some of these he found under the head of Army Extraordinaries. He would, however, do the late ministers the justice to state, that they had all along taken out of the Civil List so much of the Secret Service money as was included in the estimate of 1782; amounting to 10,000l. for the home department, and 25,000l. for the foreign. But it was, at the same time, to be recollected, in a comparative view of the sufficiency of this fund, that the whole of the Secret Service money was charged upon it during the American war. When all these considerations were looked to, he would ask noble lords whether there was not good ground for inquiry into the cause of the present embarrassments. They were told that sufficient information was

adverted to several of the items in the account; and repeated, that if exceedings upon some heads of expenditure were unavoidable, they were amply counter-balanced by exonerations and acquisitions to the civil list establishment. These were surely points for consideration, and arguments against the necessity of exceedings; and if parliament, in its liberality, should think proper to adopt a mode of clearing off those arrears, he saw no reason why it should be otherwise than the provision made for paying off the debts of the heir apparent. That illustrious personage, having to support high and splendid rank, with a confined income, became of consequence involved in debt; a grant is given for his disembarrassment, but inadequate to prevent new difficulties; and ministers, nevertheless, induce his highness to promise, for the future, to limit his expenditure within his income, which the style he had to support rendered impracticable. On his marriage ministers obtained for him an additional income of 120,000l.; but then they devote one half of it to a sinking fund to pay off his debts: to something of this sort, in the present instance, he would have no objection: but he could not understand the propriety of one law for the crown, and another for the heir apparent. Amongst other items, under

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the head of Occasional Payments, he observed one of a large sum of money advanced by way of loan to the duke of York, to be repaid by instalments in six or seven years. But surely the act for limiting the civil list never meant to make that a money-lender: a loan surely could not be properly termed an occasional payment; Better call it a royal bounty at once, and provide for it in some other way. The noble lord concluded with declaring that, if the motion of his noble friend for inquiry were refused, he would vote against the payment of the arrear altogether.

The Earl of Moira said, he would vote for the Address; but in doing so he wished to be understood, as not precluding himself hereafter from asking information on this subject. He considered it a fit subject for an inquiry, that so many charges were made on the civil list which had no connexion whatever with that establishment. The household expenses of his majesty bore no proportion whatever to the other expenses. This was a point which ought to be clearly explained. In those infamous publications which had been dispersed through the country some years ago, for the most mischievous of purposes, great pains were taken to represent his majesty as possessing an income of a million a year. The effect those gross falsehoods had on the public mind was well known. He would tell the most enthusiastic of these demagogues, that the establishment of a monarchy was as economical as that which belonged to any republic whatever. He would appeal to the example of history in all ages and in all countries, and ask, whether the most galling and vexatious democracy that ever existed could conduct the affairs of its government with more economy than a monarchy? The annals of all nations, and the universal experience of mankind, warranted him in saying, that a democracy was the most lavish and extravagant of all governments. Milton had said, that the trappings of a king would support the whole expense of a republic. That great man must certainly have been blinded with enthusiasm, or guilty of gross adulation; for no government in this country was ever more expensive than the commonwealth under which he lived. The splendor and trappings of the crown were as useful to the state as they were conducive to the dignity of the monarch; yet these trappings formed but a very

After some farther conversation, the question being put," That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the question;" the House divided: Contents, 60; Not Contents, 4.

The Address was then agreed to.

Protest against the Address on the King's Message respecting the Civil List.] In consequence of the rejection of the Amendment, the following Protest was entered on the Journals:

"Dissentient,

"Because it is inconsistent with the duties of parliament to burthen the public purse with the unwarranted profusion of ministers of the crown, without examination, and without vouchers, especially as under the salutary provision of the 22nd of the king, it is difficult to imagine the possibility of sixteen years accumulation of debt without criminal contempt of the direction of the legislature.

"Because such sanction to unscrutinized accounts tends to violate the independence and depreciate the utility of parliament, at the same time that it exposes the crown to the reproach of a burthensome debt, which might possibly, on examination, be justified by necessity, or the public good. (Signed) CARNARVON,

DUNDAS,

WENTWORTH FITZWILLIAM, HOLLAND."

Debate on Mr. Manners Sutton's Motion relative to the Revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall.] March 31. Mr. Manners Sutton rose, to submit a motion to the House relative to the claims of the prince of Wales to the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall. In bringing forward this motion, he confidently relied on the justice of his cause, and on the calm, impartial, and dispassionate temper with which he trusted it would be entertained by the House. He confessed he was at a loss to discover what material objections could be urged against it; but while he fondly imagined that he thus saw his way clearly, a consciousness of his own in

ability fully to discuss a question of such importance, filled him with an anxious wish that the performance of a task so arduous had fallen into more competent hands. But, in the situation which he had the honour to hold, he felt it incumbent on him to refer to some of the circumstances that had occurred when he had before the honour of addressing the House on this topic. In the course of that discussion a wish seemed to be expressed by the House that more satisfactory details might be entered into on the question then before them. He felt it consequently his duty to comply with that wish as far as he was able. The main object of his proposition was, that a committee should be appointed to inquire what sums arising from the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall have been received, and under what authority, since the birth of his royal highness till the period at which he attained the age of twenty-one; and what sums had been advanced to his royal highness up to the 27th of June 1795, towards the payment of his royal highness's debts. Should the House acquiesce in this motion, it would then be necessary for the committee to examine into the Journals of parliament, that lights might thence be derived to guide the judgment of the House, in deciding whether there was any thing so doubtful in point of law, or questionable in point of fact, as to make it necessary to refer to the courts of law, or to determine whether it was not fully competent for parliament to come to a decision on the question. Should the House agree to the appointment of a committee, there would then be two questions submitted to their consideration. First, whether his royal highness be or be not entitled to the arrears of the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall; and, whether, if he be, those arrears have not been expended for the public service?-But he should now proceed to advance some of the grounds upon which he imagined the claims of his royal highness to be founded. First, then, the claim of his royal highness was founded upon a grant of Edward 3rd to his son the Black Prince. He conveyed the duchy and its revenues to his son for his maintenance when that prince was only eight years of age.

What Edward had in view by this grant was, to make over this property to his son, and to secure it to him independent of the crown, that the prince might

be enabled to keep up that rank and splendor which were suitable to his exalted station. The consequence of this grant had been to vest the duchy in the prince of Wales from the moment of his birth. The prince of Wales is born duke of Cornwall, and entitled to livery of possession from the moment he is born; and he is declared of full age with regard to the revenues of the duchy from that moment. Such being the object and the operation of the grant, must it not appear extraor dinary that the king should be entitled to hold the revenues of the duchy till the prince is of age, without being under any necessity of rendering an account of them? But, when he said that it must appear somewhat extraordinary that the king should be entitled thus to hold them, he hoped it would be distinctly understood, that there existed not the least controversy between his royal highness and his majesty on the subject of these revenues. His majesty had not received them for his own use, nor did he withhold an account of them. Far otherwise: if any serious difference of opinion had arisen between these illustrious personages, if his majesty had really received those revenues and resisted the payment of them, neither he nor any person acting under the auspices of his royal highness would ever have been permitted by his royal highness to have agitated such a question even for a moment. He must, therefore, entreat the House to understand that in what he had to offer on this topic, he was speaking only abstractedly; and in speaking thus he might be permitted to say, that it was rather extraordinary that, after a grant had been so made, the king or any other person should receive the property and revenues of the duchy. Yet doubts had been entertained upon this point by men of super-eminent legal talents; and doubts from such men were entitled to the greatest deference. Yet, with all the weight so justly due to such authorities, he could not bring himself to believe that they had ever pronounced a decided opinion upon the matter. They had contented themselves with stating their doubts, and had done no more. One doubt was, whether the king as guardian of his children, had not a just claim upon the revenues of the duchy? This doubt, however, was soon abandoned; for it was understood that guardiagship in chivalry applies only to nonage; and this unfair and oppressive prin

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