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place in the nature of our revenues. He ground for the House agreeing to its would contend that, when the civil list liquidation, without a previous inquiry was once granted to the crown to be dis- into its nature, and a satisfactory stateposed of, generally speaking, without the ment that it was the result of unavoidable interference of parliament, it was at the causes. He was not prepared at once to same time not only the right but the duty give his direct negative to the payment of of parliament to inquire, whenever they the present arrears, and therefore the sawany grounds for suspicion of prodigality mode of proceeding which he would reor corruption, and especially whenever commend would be for the chairman to there was any application made to them leave the chair, to report progress, and ask for relief. The right hon. gentleman had leave to sit again. It would then be in his spoken of the expenses in former reigns, power to move, that the subject be rebut if he took into consideration the ferred again to a committee, with instrucgrants to the crown and the debt in the tions to them to investigate carefully the three reigns preceding that of his present character of the several accounts, and to majesty, he would find that in the first report their opinion to the House as to sixty years of the last century, the aver- those parts out of the whole charge which age expenditure was 794,000l. per an- they conceived ought in justice to be paid. num. Now, allowing for all the sums He begged the committee to consider, which had been granted in aid of the civil whether all the payments made from the list, and which was now proposed to be civil list in former reigns, and even since granted in aid of the civil list, for the last the accession of his present majesty, were forty years, the expenditure, upon an now chargeable on its revenue. He be. average, was not above 918,000l
. a year. lieved that, in the early years of his maHe appealed to the committee, whether jesty's reign there were many charges on this increase in the proportion of from 8 the civil list, which were now satisfied out to 9, taking all the circumstances of the of other funds specially appropriated for times into consideration, deserved the that purpose. But, were the committee language which had been applied to it by fully aware of the actual amount of the the right hon. gentleman ? Let us look at civil list revenue at the present moment. the value of money during the period of He had made some statements, the result which he had been speaking. It had in- of which was, that the amount of the civil creased in the proportion of from 2 to 3, list revenue was not less than 1,083,0001. and the increase in the expenditure of the It had been confidently affirmed, that the civil list was only as 8 to 9. It would also accounts now presented to the House be fair to look at the state of the heredi. were not liable to animadversion, but he tary revenue: the average amount of that was of a very opposite opinion. At the revenue during his majesty's reign was end of a war unparalleled in the burthens 1,200,0001. a year, in 1800 it amounted it had brought upon the public, the House to 1,800,0001. ; and this great increase of were called upon to vote the sum of one these revenues was an additional proof of million to cover the arrears of the civil the increased prosperity and wealth which list. The discussion of the propriety of the people had acquired during his majes- voting so large a sum was a matter of the ty's reign. He had no doubt but that gravest importance. the committee would concur in the motion Dr. Laurence said, that nothing was of his right hon.friend.
more erroneous than the supposition Mr. Tierney, though he highly approved that Mr. Burke had changed his opiof Mr. Fox's general reasoning, could not nion of the expediency and propriety of agree with him that no instance could oc- his bill. In this opinion, he had conticur in which a motion for the payment of nued unshaken in his retirement ; if bearrears on the civil list could be constitu- fore he quitted public life, he had entertionally entertained by the House. Very tained any doubts on the subject, he many instances might exist in which such would have fairly and openly have made a motion would be highly fit to be enter- them known to the House and the public. tained, and when such arrears might be of The learned gentleman recommended an such a nature as would fully justify their adherence to its provisions, and suggested being discharged. Still less, however, the propriety of revising its most striking could he agree with the right hon. gen- clauses. tleman opposite, that the mere circum- The Committee divided on Mr. Tierstance of the debt having accrued was any ney's amendment. For leaving the chair; 46; Against it, 228. The original ques. I will readily concur in enabling his Mation was then put, when there appeared, jesty to provide such means as shall be Ayes, 226; Noes, 51: Majority, 175. thought proper for removing the difficul
ties that have arisen from the debt which Debate in the Lords on the King's Mes has been incurred in his Majesty's civil sage respecting the Civil List.] March 29. government." The order of the day being read, and also Earl Fitzwilliam heartily agreed in the his Majesty's Message,
early part of the Address; but with regard Lord Pelham said, he conceived it was to expressing their readiness to concur in not necessary for him to go into the sub- any mode of relief that might be submitted ject much at large, because the papers laid to them, he conceived they were not ripe upon the table by him some time since, for any such declaration. It became the had no doubt been read and considered by House to make an ample inquiry into the every noble lord as well as himself. For causes to which the debt was attributable. this reason, he would briefly recapitulate It was the more extraordinary that any the statement of the expenditure, divided new excess should have arisen, because into distinct classes ; 1. The Pensions and by Mr. Burke's bill, restraints were proAllowances to the Royal Family; 2. The vided to prevent the possibility of minisSalaries of the Chancellor, the Speaker, ters again running the Civil List in debt. and the Judges ; 3. Salaries to Ministers It must, therefore, without farther explato foreign Courts; 4. The Bills of all nation, appear, that ministers had disTradesmen; 5. The Menial Servants of obeyed a positive act of the legislature. his Majesty's Household; 6. The Pension His lordship concluded with moving to List; 7. The Salaries of all other Places leave out, after the words “ people will,” payable out of the Civil List Revenues; the rest of the motion, and insert instead 8. The Salaries and Pensions of the High | thereof, the following words : “ immeTreasurer, or Commissioners of the Trea- diately proceed to the examination of the sury, and Chancellor of the Exchequer; circumstances which ave led to an accuand, 9thly, Occasional Payments. His mulation of debt on his majesty's Civil lordship explained upon each of thse se- List.” veral classes, in what manner the decrease Lord Hobart said, that when it was or increase had arisen. In those parts considered that so sınall a debt had accuwhich related immediately to the expenses mulated upon the Civil List expenditure of his majesty's family, a degree of eco. in sixteen years, he thought the best way nomy had been practised, which would to manifest their respect to his majesty, not fail to excite a just sense of his ma- would be to vote the Address; and therejesty's earnestness to prevent any addi-fore he must oppose the Amendment. tional burthens on his people. For the Lord Holland said, that no man had a most part, that branch of the expenditure deeper sense than himself of the many exceeded the estimate only where the advantages the country had enjoyed unexcessive advance on the prices of every der the auspices of the illustrious family article of consumption rendered such ex- which now occupied the throne ; but receeding unavoidable. The head under collecting how frequent applications like which the greatest exceeding occurred, the present had been made during the was that of occasional Payments; a head, present reign, he certainly conceived that the objects under which were so various, so large a sum should not be granted as a that it was impossible to form any thing matter of course. It redounded to the like regular estimates to meet them. His credit of the present ministers, that they lordship then moved, “ That an humble had instituted an inquiry in the other Address be presented to his Majesty, to House; and that their lordships should return his Majesty the Thanks of this pursue a similar course, was the object of House, for his most gracious Message, the Amendment. This was the more neand to assure his Majesty of the grateful cessary, as it now appeared, that little or Sense this House entertains of his Majes- no increase had taken place in the housety's well-founded Reliance on the loyal hold expenses. The plea of the high and affectionate Attachment of this House price of provisions must therefore be given to his Majesty's Person and Government; up; it was a milch cow that was milked and that this House, fully convinced of dry. It now appeared, that the debts had his Majesty's constant attention to the principally arisen under the head of Ocease and welfare of his faithful people, casional Payments, which were stated to (VOL. XXXVI.]
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have been unforeseen. But if the late laid before them ; but what kind of satisministers found that the yearly revenue faction could they derive from a mere was insufficient for discharging the neces- statement, that certain sums had been sary expenses of the civil government, paid under the head of Occasional Payhow did it happen that application was not ments. It was certainly singular, that sooner made to parliament? They must while a saving had taken place in other certainly have been fully aware, that this classes, this, which had, at its utmost liaccumulation was a direct violation of the mit, been fixed at 20,0001. should have so act of 1782. Mr. Burke could not have far exceeded that estimate as nearly to foreseen, that the spirit and letter of his comprise the whole of the debt; for it act would have been so grossly violated ; amounted to no less a sum than 1,047,5871. that a third secretary of state would be This mode of keeping accounts reminded appointed; that this third secretary would him of a story he had somewhere read, of be a noble duke who had supported his a man who, finding himself living beyond bill for the regulation of the Civil List; his income, determined, by way of check and that he would have assented to this upon his disposition to extravagance, to accumulation of debt, in opposition to keep an account of his expenditure. He that measure, and to the direct terms of a purchased an account-book, and resolved protest against the payment of the civil to be very particular in his items of exlist arrears in 1777. He was ready to penditure; but on opening his book at the meet the argument of the noble lord, as end of a week it contained but two items, to the inadequacy of the Civil List to the viz.-"A lead pencil, 8d.; Sundries, 1501," purposes for which it was granted. He Thus it was with the accuracy of minisconceived that parliament and his ma- ters: in details of trivial moment they jesty had, upon good grounds, at the time were extremely minute; but, on the greatwhen the additional 100,0001. was granted, est head of extravagance, they lumped off expressed their conviction that no farther an enormous sum under the head of “ Ocdebt would be incurred. Here his lord. casional Payments.” The noble lord then ship entered into a calculation of the exo- adverted to several of the items in the acnerations which had taken place, with re-count; and repeated, that if exceedings spect to the charges on the Civil List upon some heads of expenditure were unduring the last sixteen years, from the avoidable, they were amply counter-baoperation of the sinking fund; the direct lanced by exonerations and acquisitions reduction in the expense of the household to the civil list establishment. These were in 1782; the separate establishment of surely points for consideration, and argafour princes of the blood royal; and the ments against the necessity of exceedings ; reversion of the pensions given to two and if parliament, in its liberality, should others since dead. These he stated at the think proper to adopt a mode of clearing sum of 200,0001. yearly, exclusive of the off those arrears, he saw no reason why it savings in Secret Service money, and va- should be otherwise than the provision rious other charges which were now voted made for paying off the debts of the heir by parlianient. Some of these he found apparent. That illustrious personage, under the head of Army Extraordinaries. having to support high and splendid rank, He would, however, do the late ministers with a confined income, became of consethe justice to state, that they had all along quence involved in debt; a grant is given taken out of the Civil List so much of the for his disembarrassment, but inadequate Secret Service money as was included in to prevent new difficulties ; and ministers, the estimate of 1782; amounting to nevertheless, induce his highness to pro10,0001. for the home department, and mise, for the future, to limit his expendi25,0001. for the foreign. But it was, at ture within his income, which the style he the same time, to be recollected, in a had to support rendered impracticable. comparative view of the sufficiency of this On his marriage ministers obtained for fund, that the whole of the Secret Ser- him an additional income of 120,0001.; vice money was charged upon it dur- but then they devote one half of it to a ing the American war. When all these sinking fund to pay off his debts : to someconsiderations were looked to, he would thing of this sort, in the present instance, ask noble lords whether there was not he would have no objection : but he could good ground for inquiry into the cause not understand the propriety of one law of the present embarrassments. They for the crown, and another for the heir were told that sufficient information was apparent. Amongst other items, under
the head of Occasional Payments, he ob- small part of the establishment. He would served one of a large sum of money ad- forbear saying any thing concerning the vanced by way of loan to the duke of affairs of the prince; but he could not York, to be repaid by instalments in six help observing, that the provisions for the or seven years. But surely the act for younger branches of the royal family were limiting the civil list never nieant to make much too small for their rank and situathat a money-lender : a loan surely could tion in life. A degree of prodigality was not be properly termed an occasional pay- required of them which it was impossible ment; Better call it a royal bounty at they could practise. once, and provide for it in some other After some farther conversation, the way. The noble lord concluded with de- question being put,-" That the words claring that, if the motion of his noble proposed to be left out, stand part of the friend for inquiry were refused, he would question ;" the House divided : Contents, yote against the payment of the arrear al- 60; Not Contents, 4. together.
The Address was then agreed to. The Earl of Moira said, he would vote for the Address; but in doing so he wish- Protest against the Address on the King's ed to be understood, as not precluding Message respecting the Civil List.] In himself hereafter from asking information conscquence of the rejection of the on this subject. He considered it a fit | Amendment, the following Protest was subject for an inquiry, that so many entered on the Journals: charges were made on the civil list which “ Dissentient, had no connexion whatever with that es- " Because it is inconsistent with the tablishment. The household expenses of duties of parliament to burthen the public his majesty bore no proportion whatever purse with the unwarranted profusion of to the other expenses. This was a point ministers of the crown, without examinawhich ought to be clearly explained. In tion, and without vouchers, especially as those infamous publications which had under the salutary provision of the 22nd been dispersed through the country some of the king, it is difficult to imagine the years ago, for the most mischievous of possibility of sixteen years accumulation purposes, great pains were taken to repre- of debt without criminal contempt of the sent his majesty as possessing an income direction of the legislature. of a million a year.
The effect those “Because such sanction to unscrutinized gross falsehoods had on the public mind accounts tends to violate the independence was well known. He would tell the most and depreciate the utility of parliament, at enthusiastic of these demagogues, that the same time that it exposes the crown the establishment of a monarchy was as to the reproach of a burthensome debt, economical as that which belonged to any which might possibly, on examination, be republic whatever. He would appeal to justified by necessity, or the public good. the example of history in all ages and in (Signed) CARNARVON, all countries, and ask, whether the most
DUNDAS, galling and vexatious democracy that ever
WENTWORTH FITZWILLIAM, existed could conduct the affairs of its go
HOLLAND." vernment with more economy than a monarchy ? The annals of all nations, Debate on Mr. Manners Sutton's Moand the universal experience of mankind, tion relative to the Revenues of the Duchy warranted him in saying, that a democracy of Cornwall.] March 31. Mr. Manners was the most lavish and extravagant of all Sutton rose, to submit a motion to the governments. Milton liad said, that the House relative to the claims of the prince trappings of a king would support the of Wales to the revenues of the duchy whole expense of a republic. That great of Cornwall. In bringing forward this man must certainly have been blinded motion, he confidently relied on the juswith enthusiasm, or guilty of gross adula- tice of his cause, and on the calm, imtion ; for no government in this country partial, and dispassionate temper with was ever more expensive than the com- which he trusted it would be entertained monwealth under which he lived. The by the House. He confessed he was at a splendor and trappings of the crown loss to discover what material objections were as useful to the state as they were could be urged against it; but while he conducive to the dignity of the monarch ; | fondly imagined that he thus saw his way yet these trappings formed but a very clearly, a consciousness of his own inability fully to discuss a question of such | be enabled to keep up that rank and importance, filled him with an anxious splendor which were suitable to his exalted wish that the performance of a task so station. The consequence of this grant arduous had fallen into more competent had been to vest the duchy in the prince hands. But, in the situation which he of Wales from the moment of his birth. had the honour to hold, he felt it in- The prince of Wales is born duke of cumbent on him to refer to some of the Cornwall, and entitled to livery of possescircumstances that had occurred when he sion from the moment he is born; and he had before the honour of addressing the \ is declared of full age with regard to the House on this topic. In the course of revenues of the duchy from that moment. that discussion a wish seemed to be ex. Such being the object and the operation pressed by the House that more satisfac- of the grant, must it not appear extraortory details might be entered into on the dinary that the king should be entitled to question then before them. He felt it hold the revenues of the duchy till the consequently his duty to comply with prince is of age, without being under that wish as far as he was able. The any necessity of rendering an account of main object of his proposition was, that them? But, when he said that it must a committee should be appointed to in- appear somewhat extraordinary that the quire what sums arising from the revenues king should be entitled thus to hold them, of the duchy of Cornwall have been re- he hoped it would be distinctly understood, ceived, and under what authority, since that there existed not the least controversy the birth of his royal highness till the pe- between his royal highness and his mariod at which he attained the age of jesty on the subject of these revenues. twenty-one; and what sums had been ad- His majesty had noboreceived them for vanced to his royal highness up to the his own use, nor did he withhold an 27th of June 1795, towards the payment account of them. Far otherwise: if any of his royal highness's debts. Should the serious difference of opinion had arisen House acquiesce in this motion, it would between these illustrious personages, if then be necessary for the committee to his majesty had really received those reexamine into the Journals of parliament, venues and resisted the payment of them, that lights might thence be derived to neither he nor any person acting under guide the judgment of the House, in the auspices of his royal highness would deciding wliether there was any thing so ever have been permitted by his royal doubtful in point of law, or questiona- highness to have agitated such a question ble in point of fact, as to make it ne- even for a moment. He must, therefore, cessary to refer to the courts of law, or entreat the House to understand that in to determine whether it was not fully what he had to offer on this topic, he was competent for parliament to come to a speaking only abstractedly; and in speakdecision on the question. Should the ing thus he might be permitted to say, House agree to the appointment of a com- that it was rather extraordinary that, mittee, there would then be two questions after a grant had been so made, the kiog submitted to their consideration. First, or any other person should receive the whether his royal highness be or be not property and revenues of the duchy. Yet entitled to the arrears of the revenues of doubts had been entertained upon this the duchy of Cornwall; and, whether, if point by men of super-eminent legal he be, those arrears have not been ex-talents; and doubts from such men were pended for the public service?-But he entitled to the greatest deference. Yet, should now proceed to advance some of with all the weight so justly due to such the grounds upon which he imagined authorities, he could not bring himself to the claims of his royal highness to be believe that they had ever pronounced a founded. First, then, the claim of his decided opinion upon the matter." They royal highness was founded upon a grant bad contented themselves with stating of Edward 3rd to his son the Black their doubts, and had done no more, Prince. He conveyed the duchy and its One doubt was, whether the king as revenues to his son for his maintenance giardian of his children, had not a just when that prince was only eight years of claim upon the revenues of the 'duchy? age. What Edward had in view by this This doubt, however, was soon abangrant was, to make over this property to doned; for it was understood that guarhis son, and to secure it to him indepen- dianship in chivalry applies only to nondent of the crown, that the prince might age; and this unfair and oppressive prin